U and UA: Domino Effect Commencing

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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PITbull wrote:
I don't claim to know all the facts about UA. Just that one could easily argue against the doom and gloom scenerio being more purposely planned than a 9/11 misfortune or consequence. Now, look at U being considered the darling airline according to Forbes magazine. I only know that 9 months ago , all the airline analysts stated that U was in the worst position of the Majors and heading for the grave yard. As soon as they hired Siegel (little over 6 months after the merger collapsed) the wheels were turning. ALL the carriers experienced the acute situation after 9/11. ALL were effected.That was the purpose of the Government Bail out monies/grants. Delta has a major presence on the East Coast as well as Southwest. You know they were especially effected just like USAirways. Yes, we have a strong market and presence in DCA, but for the loss in revenue as a concequence of the DCA airport shutdown, after 9/11, U was compensated with grant money from the government, (a freebee, no less, as part of the bailout funding).Within months, U hired these guys (who we know are Union busters and have consulting firms outside of the U corporation, get hired by our Board. I was never opposed to sitting down with the co. and giving concessions to help our co. turn around. I never thought that the answer to U problem was to gut all the contracts and get Labor to basically abrogate their own agreements through threats, intimidation tactics, and FEAR. I knew, way back in August, just through my own experience, what this was all about, and what would come next with regard to the rest of the Industry. U employees set the new bar for the rest of the industry to follow as the perfect plan.
The magazines are writing all about Siegel and his notorious team in a little over 9 months of them being on this property. They are considered Kings in this industry and we helped put them on the map; Forbes magazine no less.
I wrote out as far back as late August of the domino effect, this will now create. These labor concessions to the industry (using the same plan) is worth billions and billions of dollars to the airlines who have unions.
As an airline, losing money now, in order to get out of lease agreements that are usually long-term along with getting out of vender contracts through a bankruptcy, or threaten bankruptcy coupled with the greatest trump card liquidation, would then allow any airline the once in a lifetime opportunity to make billions of dollars in the future. This manuvering and scheming plan would, in the future, allow stock holders, corporate execs. to make millions of dollars. Why wouldn't a Republican Congress go for that. Get the airline employees to pay for the security measures through cost saving concessions. This way they won't get these pressures from the Majors to involve the gov. with this expense. The flying public believes that they won't be touched by this either. Corporations are keeping you all for last. Once they reduce capacity, passengers will have to pay for higher price tickets along with paying for the eminities. For exp. food on planes will be at a cost. U is looking into this now and getting a committee for input, along with talking with food venders. Meanwhile back at the ranch, the rank and file employees will suffer great personal financial loss to themselves and families for many years. It's all relative. When all the airlines get their fresh start, passengers will be paying higher price tickets as a consequence to reducing capacity. Only folks still riding on the gravy train is Corporate Executives!
You have to ask yourself a couple of questions:
1. Why would UA wait so long to implement a plan? Is it it possible that these corporate execs were watching how U was going to pull it off? They watched and waited. When they saw it working...all hell broke loose for UA. Same plan same time same station.They see the potential for big profits by using Labor concessions, bankruptcy, and
letting the defined pension liabilities fall underfunded to get rid of them. Anything that benefits an employee for their 30 year contribution of blood, sweat and tears working for the same co. You know today its a miracle to work for a co. for 30 years. Takes much loyalty and dedication. Now, for many, the reward is...0... to much less than anticipated.
2. Notice American and NW, CO, now looking to hire bankruptcy attorneys? Same plan, same time, same station.
3. Notice McCain trying to revamp the RLA? The worry now is that when ALL THESE CONTRACTS FROM ALL THESE CARRIERS BECOME AMENDABLE AT THE SAME TIME 6-8 years, they could cripple the industry by job actions.
4.Ask yourself this, why in hell would U spend all this time with an alliance with UA (if this management is so ingeneous) which they say is worth $200 million extra in revenues per year, and is part of their emergence plan, if UA has such great potential to go off a cliff and disappear?
UA is not just asking for some givebacks from Labor they are going after everything they have ever dreamed of in those contracts...yea, they will lose money all right. Damn straight they will. When Chip speaks of the UA situation as so severe, he's expressing, misery loves company kind of deal.
No one cares about Labor surviving and supporting their families? A respectable life is only for the rich and famous. There is no more balance.
You have the public advocating for corporations, government advocating for corporations, wall street advocating for corporations, and now even Unions advocating for corporations....WHO THE HELL IS FOR LABOR????
UA is no different than U or American or DL and CO, NW who will all follow this suit. Its a great plan, and if they have to BURN CASH in order to justify going into BK and even threatening Liquidation as the ultimate, which you know causes revenue decline, they don't care. THEY WILL DO IT! And if you think these companies will not go after the passengers for concessions...they will definitely cross that line.
It's already begun.
P.s. I have been all over these posts talking about it. People are so focused on what they think is the obvious. That is exactly what they want you to believe.
PITbull
 
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
Pit,

As we are all 'disassociated' from reality.
How can 'we' change the inevitable???

We are Eloi!!!

 
OP
PITbull

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
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UAL,

The inevitable is the reality we allow. Let the leadership know that you as mmembers are willing to give the co. what it needs NOT what it wants. Big difference.If your management tries to gut your agreements, take your position to the limit. They will threaten liquidation, knowing that this will scare pasengers, but realize that BK is their answer to get the lease agreements by the lessors that the judge will work out to pay, not what was negotiated in previous years. BK is a companies dream for a "fresh start". Keep in mind, your management wants ALL your contracts for the "plan" to work. Know that AA and CO and NW are going down the same path now. They are hiring BK attorneys. These agreements are worth billions to the Industry, I mean billions for many years to come. Know that a plan to take wages and benefits from the employee to prevent a co. to go into liquidation in exchange, many employees will go into financial ruin is NO PLAN.

A co. that can not pay their employees a wage that allows their employees to live in a standard that is respectable and pay their bills on time, is a COMPANY that has no right to exist.
We at U were way behind the 8 ball. No one had been through what we had gone through. No one in union history, and got the concessions our management team did OUT SIDE OF GOING INTO BANKRUPTCY.

Print the correspondence above to take with you to work and share it with many. Hard to organize unity and resistance in this type of climate, but you have to try.

U has crippled their labor groups for many years. Many, have lost jobs, and those that remain are looking down the road of personal bankruptcy in their near future. Our co. is going to take another 5% pay cut when we go to war, and our Medical goes up for the 2ond time on March 15th. Twice in threee months...round #2 of concessions has just been ratified with much threat. However, the margin is closing. The agreements by the labor groups barely ratified.

Your co. wants to burn cash in order to get what they want in bankruptcy and by Labor.

Keep the faith,

 

UnitedChicago

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Aug 27, 2002
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Lets not forget that this post is all opinion based. With all due respect, I don't see any sources or back-up to qualify the opionions and points expressed.

While everyone is allowed to post opinion, doing so with arrogance or in such a way that it appears that the poster has inside information should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
OP
PITbull

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 11:04:37 PM UnitedChicago wrote:

Lets not forget that this post is all opinion based. With all due respect, I don't see any sources or back-up to qualify the opionions and points expressed.

While everyone is allowed to post opinion, doing so with arrogance or in such a way that it appears that the poster has inside information should be taken with a grain of salt.
----------------
[/blockquote]


I wrote that post in the most humble manner that I could.
I am very sorry that you have such a perception.

You say "inside information"...I experienced the very situation you all are about to embark on, and I was at the table. I was making a point. The factual information is from my own experience; what facts do you need, that we had a Union buster team on the property. Look up "Ford and Harrison" consulting firm, and than hit affiliates.

Jerry Glass and associates should come up with the slogan "when they roar...we pounce". He is the Senior Exec. Vice President that was hired by our co. this past March along with Doug McKeen another VP of Labor Relations. Take the facts: U and UA both wanted an merger together, both hired new CEOs in 2002, both went into bankruptcy, both have an alliance, both threatened liquidation, both are implementing LCC within the airline as a division of "mainline". Coincedence? These concessions are worth billions to these airlines. The ATSB, gives the excuse for airlines to lock labor in for many, many years.

You may take my sentiments with a "grain of salt" and feel insulted that I would post this on your board. With all due respect, I wish you well,
 

kcabpilot

Senior
Aug 22, 2002
271
0
PITbull

I'd say your assesment of the situation is very accurate.

There was a transcript from a Jan 13 WHQ meeting floating around at work. How a copy of it fell into the hands of the sloven unwashed masses is beyond me - it was obvious after reading it that it was never meant for distribution at that level.

Anyway, in it, Jake Brace clearly states that the bankruptcy filing and specifically the 1113 filing provides management with an opportunity to do to labor all of what they have been wanting to do for years.

Glenn Tilton, while collecting his $950,000 per year salary, espouses that this crisis, though painful, should be looked upon as a refreshing change from the lathargic boredom of good times. This, coupled with last weeks EYE-ON-UA message (the one about the five good looking, well dressed young men who, having just been laid off, thought they would stop by old Glenn's office and let him know how they really believed in him and what he was doing) have convinced me that there are two universes.

This one and the one, way out there, where Glenn Tilton is.
 

airlineorphan

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/9/2003 11:04:37 PM UnitedChicago wrote:

Lets not forget that this post is all opinion based. With all due respect, I don't see any sources or back-up to qualify the opionions and points expressed.

While everyone is allowed to post opinion, doing so with arrogance or in such a way that it appears that the poster has inside information should be taken with a grain of salt.
----------------
[/blockquote]

UnitedChicago,

I'm not sure what you mean when you suggest PITbull is creating an appearance of inside knowledge. I've been reading the Wall Street Journal, Fitch reports, Biz Week, company SEC reports and such, and it's all pretty much public information. Not inside information.

PITbull has been in the thick of the situation at US Airways. When PITbull sounds the alarm for employees at UAL and other airlines that the insatiable concessions beast is coming your way, that alarm should be heeded and is intended as a gesture of solidarity. PITbull, myself, and many others who have been living the nightmare of multi-round concessions with the gun of liquidation pointed at our heads are honestly broken hearted at what has been done to us and our coworkers, and also about what is likely to be done to coworkers at other airlines.

We sound the alarm in hopes that UAL employees will find it in themselves to unite and resist in ways we were unable to do. We were hit by a blitzkrieg of contract busting, led by professional union busters like Jerry Glass (he comes right out of the unabashed billion $ union busting industry).

We got hammered. We hope you can learn from our mistakes. US Airways employees gave under threat of a chapter 11 filing. US Airways filed Chapter 11 anyway. Management got around 1113 letters that forbade them from going to the courts to demand more by simply pointing the liquidation gun at employees' heads. Fear consumed us, wrecked any sense of solidarity, and management got some more. But in the concessions game, the more you give, the more you give. Management won't stop making demands until someone draws the line. Looks like the termination of the pilots' pension plan might be the bridge too far for this management, but that game is not yet played out.

If UAL employees don't want to be a dominoe falling, the US Airways experience is worth analyzing, because UAl management is certainly pulling plays out of LiquiDave Siegel's playbook.

Watch each other's backs!

In solidarity with UAL employees,
-Airlineorphan

P.S. If you need documentation of these things, I'm sure several of us in the US Airways scene can provide them. The fact is that very few postings on these bulletin boards contain footnotes, so rather than holding that standard to PITbull's post, be specific and ask for back up on specific issues if you are skeptical rather than vaguely impugning the veracity of PITbull's statement.
 

kcabpilot

Senior
Aug 22, 2002
271
0
N230UA

antagonizing and disturbing?

I'd say that aptly describes most of what I read in the meeting transcript where "Labor" is viewed as nothing more than a leased piece of equipment. Something you can stop payment on or throw on the scrap heap.

The situation this company finds itself in is the direct result of the attitudes and half baked business adventures of it's "leadership team". The idea that these clowns could suddenly come up with a killer strategy to take over the low cost market is, in a word - laughable.

My opinion? This company should look inward and heal the wounds that have been inflicted upon itself over the past several years. You want to be like Southwest? You're going to need Southwest employees - which means that management is going to have to make the painful and distasteful sacrifice of treating their employees like human beings. Right now this company is a sick giant and senior management has deluded itself into thinking it's ready for battle.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
 

Braveheart

Member
Jan 29, 2003
60
0
PITbull:

Your post and your writing must be taken more seriously by all Union Execs and their members. You are right on target. Keep up the good work.

Seigel and his staff maneuvered fear with an elaborate threat plan of no job and a major loss in benefit plan extremely well. He and his staff expounded upon the intricacies of intimidation tactics based on facts and figures only he and his staff are extremely familiar with. Remember, figures don’t lie but people do. Utterly important, the intimidation of FEAR is and still remains a well-used TOOL by corporate execs as a proven tool for success.

Unfortunately, Union’s NO longer compromise for the good of all; they compromise contracts on a singular basis. Failing to investigate thoroughly the side effects that will come back and haunt each of us at a later date and time is a major downfall.

What Union group conceded to Seigel’s first concession demands?

What psychological tactic was Seigel instituting?

Seigel is playing his troops like a Chess game. A chess player concentrating on his/her opponent’s every move. As he moves his pawn, rook, bishop, queen and king together and strategically, he observes and concentrates on the flaws his opponents make as they give up one group at a time, not maneuvering together. Thus, he realizes they can never become victorious.

As Unions and its members continue to neglect awareness, fail to identify quickly Seigel and his Union busting staff’s weaknesses, they will continue to fall one CWA, one FA, one IAM, and one ALPA at a time. Failing to emulate equality for all.

Taking control harmoniously plays a vital concept in identifying your opponent’s weaknesses. It allows your opponent to attack you much easier when you use one group at a time. As these groups are removed one-by-one the opponent becomes a dominating factor leaving each Union group flawless and gullible for attack.

The ultimate fear in today society is money. Without money one cannot survive. What we lack in understanding is the actual slavery those of the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s endured before Unions were formed. Until that occurs again, Unions will continue to be filibustered by Corporate Execs.

How many people have actually sat down with their contracts and figured out what they have given up and what the total package deal was and would have been?

How many people have actually sat down and figured out with all the new concessions, the medical benefit costs they are paying for, the benefits they lost, and then deducted that from their hourly salary to see how close they are to minimum wages?

As you climb the years of contract givebacks, you will be surprised at what your actual take home pay will be. Then add the cost of living adjustment for taxes, meals, clothing and cars and see how well you will survive.

That $150,000 giveback Seigel gave up is peanuts compared to what that worker has given up.



11.gif']
 
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
Dear PITbull,

I'm with you!!!
Question is???
How to create a 'single' unionized force of 'Airline Workers'???
Current unions are unimpressive, and only perpetuate the further fragmentation of their constituents.
Hell, we are even in a pissing contest pitting unions against unions!!!
(My union is better than your union)!!! Childish!!!
Not to mention the pilots -vs- AMT -vs- ramp -vs- stores -vs- cleaners -vs- everyone else!!!
Management simply “LOVESâ€￾ this fractionalization and will capitalize/perpetuate it on every opportunity we give them.

Do you see an out here???

Take Care and Watch Your Back,

UAL_TECH
“We were owners but none of us acted like it!!!â€￾
 

Segue

Senior
Oct 31, 2002
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Yes, the Domino Effect is happening - just this time its the downward curve of "Industry Leading Wages". Its not any conspiracy, but the simple fact that none of the majors can generate enough revenue to cover costs in the current environment. Something has to give.
 
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/10/2003 10:53:19 PM Segue wrote:

Yes, the Domino Effect is happening - just this time its the downward curve of "Industry Leading Wages". Its not any conspiracy, but the simple fact that none of the majors can generate enough revenue to cover costs in the current environment. Something has to give.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Sharing the pain 'equitably' is fair.
To take the 'current' management structure and give them 'yet' more money to retain them is idiotic!!!

They (as we[if not more so]) were culpable in our current business situation, and should suffer the same fate as the rest of us.

UAL_TECH
"We were owners but none of us acted like it!!!"
 
OP
PITbull

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
7,784
456
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/10/2003 10:53:19 PM Segue wrote:

Yes, the Domino Effect is happening - just this time its the downward curve of "Industry Leading Wages". Its not any conspiracy, but the simple fact that none of the majors can generate enough revenue to cover costs in the current environment. Something has to give.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Think about it...how much is really economy driven and how much is competiting against who can get the most from their labor groups AS THE ONLY BUSINESS STRETEGY?
 

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