Understanding sentiment and reaching the point of indifference- Par II
- Thread starter Webster
- Start date
Webster, a USaviation.com Moderator, closed the thread titled Understanding sentiment and reaching the point of indifference because Lavman and Cat 111's comments and insults (which have been removed) and inability to debate in a mature fashion have closed this thread...others will be closed if you can't behave respectfully, Webster said.
First, I encourage all forum members to professionally debate any issue and I encourage all readers to go back into the orignial thread and read all of the posts.
However, I take great exception to a comment made by PineyBob.
To put this into context I said, I'm tired of going round and round and debating these issues. Let's just agree to disagree. There are more important things in life and unless things change, I'm not very optimistic about US Airways' future. Maybe it's time to move on and pursue other alternatives. In all sincerity, I wish all of the best of luck in your future(s). From my perspective, for the first time in my nearly 20-year career my heart is no longer in US Airways, which I find very sad.
In response PineBob said, Why because your position is indefensible?
PineyBob, with all due repsect, I have almost exclusively posted facts and not an indefensible opinion. When I post an opinion I use the phrase in my opinion or I believe, which is not very often.
What's interesting is that the entire ALPA MEC by a 12-0 margin, the MEC Officers, and the vast majority of the rank-and-file agree with ALPA's public comments. There is enormous pilot solidarity on this issue; therefore, I hardly find ALPA's position indefensible when nearly 8,000 active, furloughed, and retired pilots are all in concert on the pilot pension distressed termination issue.
Siegel's moves have galvanized this pilot group unlike ever before and I find one respected Wall Street analyst's comments to me interesting.
The airline analyst source who is close to the company said, This is a very compelling legal brief against the company's action. I think I now understand why ALPA is on such a rampage about this (and I don't blame them one bit, either).
That was not a good way to treat a group that was obviously cooperating, and is very much against the way Dave Siegel has been acting towards labor to date, he said.
It will be interesting to see how the judge handles this one. Either way, the handling of this issue will likely come back to haunt Siegel and Bronner. If the judge rules that he lacks jurisdiction to terminate the plan, the proceedings will be held up considerably. I think Siegel and Bronner will quickly come to the table to negotiate for some middle ground to prevent further delays. However, their negotiating position will have been jeopardized by the handling of the plan termination issue. If the judge terminates the plan, Siegel and co. are still left with a bitter pilot group, not a good way to emerge from Chapter 11 with designs on building a durable franchise, the analyst noted.
See PineyBob, with all due respect, Wall Street airline experts are now looking at this a bit different than you and interestingly now see the real time bomb that awaits Mr. Siegel, for a company that is now on the verge of imploding.
What a way for Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass to end their restructuring efforts...
Regardless, as I said earlier, for the first time in my nearly 20-year career my heart is no longer in US Airways, which I find very sad.
Sincerely,
Chip
First, I encourage all forum members to professionally debate any issue and I encourage all readers to go back into the orignial thread and read all of the posts.
However, I take great exception to a comment made by PineyBob.
To put this into context I said, I'm tired of going round and round and debating these issues. Let's just agree to disagree. There are more important things in life and unless things change, I'm not very optimistic about US Airways' future. Maybe it's time to move on and pursue other alternatives. In all sincerity, I wish all of the best of luck in your future(s). From my perspective, for the first time in my nearly 20-year career my heart is no longer in US Airways, which I find very sad.
In response PineBob said, Why because your position is indefensible?
PineyBob, with all due repsect, I have almost exclusively posted facts and not an indefensible opinion. When I post an opinion I use the phrase in my opinion or I believe, which is not very often.
What's interesting is that the entire ALPA MEC by a 12-0 margin, the MEC Officers, and the vast majority of the rank-and-file agree with ALPA's public comments. There is enormous pilot solidarity on this issue; therefore, I hardly find ALPA's position indefensible when nearly 8,000 active, furloughed, and retired pilots are all in concert on the pilot pension distressed termination issue.
Siegel's moves have galvanized this pilot group unlike ever before and I find one respected Wall Street analyst's comments to me interesting.
The airline analyst source who is close to the company said, This is a very compelling legal brief against the company's action. I think I now understand why ALPA is on such a rampage about this (and I don't blame them one bit, either).
That was not a good way to treat a group that was obviously cooperating, and is very much against the way Dave Siegel has been acting towards labor to date, he said.
It will be interesting to see how the judge handles this one. Either way, the handling of this issue will likely come back to haunt Siegel and Bronner. If the judge rules that he lacks jurisdiction to terminate the plan, the proceedings will be held up considerably. I think Siegel and Bronner will quickly come to the table to negotiate for some middle ground to prevent further delays. However, their negotiating position will have been jeopardized by the handling of the plan termination issue. If the judge terminates the plan, Siegel and co. are still left with a bitter pilot group, not a good way to emerge from Chapter 11 with designs on building a durable franchise, the analyst noted.
See PineyBob, with all due respect, Wall Street airline experts are now looking at this a bit different than you and interestingly now see the real time bomb that awaits Mr. Siegel, for a company that is now on the verge of imploding.
What a way for Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass to end their restructuring efforts...
Regardless, as I said earlier, for the first time in my nearly 20-year career my heart is no longer in US Airways, which I find very sad.
Sincerely,
Chip
Chip, in a previous post you indicated that you wanted folks to talk about the facts, it seems as though ALPA has forgotten the facts with regard to the USAirways pilot's pension negotiation. Let's face it, you are in a lose-lose situation. If you succeed in court in retaining your old pension terms, the airline goes Chapter 7 and you lose your pension. If the airline wins in bankruptcy court to eliminate the pension, you lose your pension. It's time to move on with a 401K (matching plan), Roth IRA, and Social Security like quite a few of your fellow Americans.
How many pilots are furloughed nationwide, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000? So many times in the past, ALPA could negotiate from a position of strength, but look around and there has been sea-change in the industry, competition from discount carriers, a decrease in demand, etc.
The bottom-line is that the USairways is broke and is trying to get lift. To quote the bank robber as to why he robs banks, " 'caus that's were the money is". Why pick on the pilots, 'caus that's where the money is.
Is this situation fair, no it's not. Do the USairways pilots have a right to be angry, yes they certainly do. In a capitalist economy like ours, bankrupt companies walk away from their pension obligations every day and those are the breaks.
The days of loyalty to a company for 30 years, defined benefit plans, and 100% health coverage are gone-welcome to the 21st century.
How many pilots are furloughed nationwide, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000? So many times in the past, ALPA could negotiate from a position of strength, but look around and there has been sea-change in the industry, competition from discount carriers, a decrease in demand, etc.
The bottom-line is that the USairways is broke and is trying to get lift. To quote the bank robber as to why he robs banks, " 'caus that's were the money is". Why pick on the pilots, 'caus that's where the money is.
Is this situation fair, no it's not. Do the USairways pilots have a right to be angry, yes they certainly do. In a capitalist economy like ours, bankrupt companies walk away from their pension obligations every day and those are the breaks.
The days of loyalty to a company for 30 years, defined benefit plans, and 100% health coverage are gone-welcome to the 21st century.
autofixer
Veteran
I am deleting this site from my favorites. You guys and gals are truly not very well informed or very mature. Good luck with your next job, I am well on my way to taking care of my family without U. Addios!
PITbull
Veteran
Chip,
Thanks for reposting this. The majority of the thread posters were starting to see each others point of view, and I don't think it was fair to "lock it out" because of one or two threads that may have appeared insulting.
Delete them, maybe, but not a "lock out".
Chip's quote: "See PineyBob, with all due respect, Wall Street airline experts are now looking at this a bit different than you and interestingly now see the real "time bomb" that awaits Mr. Siegel, for a company that is now on the verge of imploding.
What a way for Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass to end their restructuring efforts...
PITbull writes:
Let's say the Judge rules in favor of the pilots and the co. can not terminate the pension, Siegel and Glass, and Bronner will just use the same threats as in the summer and winter negotiations and threaten to pull financing and liquidate.
What will pilots strategy be then? How is that different than this past Dec. threat? This mangement will just make you guys give even MORE cash. Don't you agree?
Believe me, I hope you rip them a new "hole", but will the pilots be able to sustain that threat again and still stay together? This time the co. may say..."give more CASH or we liquidate and their will be no pension, no wage, no benefits. period". They will threaten AGAIN, that they will not qualify for ATSB and Bronner will pull out. And the threats go on and on and on.
What will be different?
Thanks for reposting this. The majority of the thread posters were starting to see each others point of view, and I don't think it was fair to "lock it out" because of one or two threads that may have appeared insulting.
Delete them, maybe, but not a "lock out".
Chip's quote: "See PineyBob, with all due respect, Wall Street airline experts are now looking at this a bit different than you and interestingly now see the real "time bomb" that awaits Mr. Siegel, for a company that is now on the verge of imploding.
What a way for Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass to end their restructuring efforts...
PITbull writes:
Let's say the Judge rules in favor of the pilots and the co. can not terminate the pension, Siegel and Glass, and Bronner will just use the same threats as in the summer and winter negotiations and threaten to pull financing and liquidate.
What will pilots strategy be then? How is that different than this past Dec. threat? This mangement will just make you guys give even MORE cash. Don't you agree?
Believe me, I hope you rip them a new "hole", but will the pilots be able to sustain that threat again and still stay together? This time the co. may say..."give more CASH or we liquidate and their will be no pension, no wage, no benefits. period". They will threaten AGAIN, that they will not qualify for ATSB and Bronner will pull out. And the threats go on and on and on.
What will be different?
delldude
Veteran
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 12:40:24 PM LavMan wrote:
You cant win, it is not a winable fight, you have no position of strengh.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Hey! Its not over. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!?
----------------
On 2/22/2003 12:40:24 PM LavMan wrote:
You cant win, it is not a winable fight, you have no position of strengh.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Hey! Its not over. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!?
delldude
Veteran
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 12:29:14 PM Upsgnr wrote:
The days of loyalty to a company for 30 years, defined benefit plans, and 100% health coverage are gone-welcome to the 21st century.
----------------
[/blockquote]
someone ought to paint this on a wall...right on upsgnr !!
----------------
On 2/22/2003 12:29:14 PM Upsgnr wrote:
The days of loyalty to a company for 30 years, defined benefit plans, and 100% health coverage are gone-welcome to the 21st century.
----------------
[/blockquote]
someone ought to paint this on a wall...right on upsgnr !!
Chip:
Your diligence, facts, opinions and generally intellectually honest arguments over time have proven sometimes correct and sometimes not. In any case, I think most appreciate your efforts and committment. However, for me, the issue is simple. Whether or not we retain our current retirement, this pilot group should continue to make it ever so clear to management that the spirit and intent of a pension is "INVIOLABLE, SACROSANCT and NON-NEGOTIABLE!" It is a pact, a promise, an oath between honorable parties that may be modified as necessary during the worst of times but never can be taken away! It is what we have used as a basis over the years to plan our lives!
The portion already earned is "in the bank"! The future is open to negotiation. "2.4% DOH to Jan. '03 and FAE best 36 out of ten" is "in the bank!" For any pilot to consider accepting any less is incomprehensible to me! Let's face it, if the company's future actually hangs on the thread of finding a solution to the pilot's pension plan -- it's going down anyway!
WE are making our stand -- let's stick with it unwavering -- it's based on principle and WE WILL WIN!
Dana
Your diligence, facts, opinions and generally intellectually honest arguments over time have proven sometimes correct and sometimes not. In any case, I think most appreciate your efforts and committment. However, for me, the issue is simple. Whether or not we retain our current retirement, this pilot group should continue to make it ever so clear to management that the spirit and intent of a pension is "INVIOLABLE, SACROSANCT and NON-NEGOTIABLE!" It is a pact, a promise, an oath between honorable parties that may be modified as necessary during the worst of times but never can be taken away! It is what we have used as a basis over the years to plan our lives!
The portion already earned is "in the bank"! The future is open to negotiation. "2.4% DOH to Jan. '03 and FAE best 36 out of ten" is "in the bank!" For any pilot to consider accepting any less is incomprehensible to me! Let's face it, if the company's future actually hangs on the thread of finding a solution to the pilot's pension plan -- it's going down anyway!
WE are making our stand -- let's stick with it unwavering -- it's based on principle and WE WILL WIN!
Dana
The company is stealing your pension.
The government is giving you handguns.
I don't like any of this!
The government is giving you handguns.
I don't like any of this!
Sorry I am not like the french, I fought with my group and did not fold like ALPA has done.
Explain to me how ALPA and the Pilots can win?
Lets see, the judge does not terminate your penison:
1. Bronner pulls the DIP and US goes chapter 7 and your pension and your salary paying six figures is gone along with it.
2. The judge terminates your pension, you wildcat, get a restraining order slapped on you and a fine for millions just like what happened to the APA over at AA.
And U goes chapter 7 maybe and you lose your pension or they stay in business and you get the PBGC and a new DCP.
3. The judge terminates your pension and you mutually agree to something.
So explain to me how you can win?
Explain to me how ALPA and the Pilots can win?
Lets see, the judge does not terminate your penison:
1. Bronner pulls the DIP and US goes chapter 7 and your pension and your salary paying six figures is gone along with it.
2. The judge terminates your pension, you wildcat, get a restraining order slapped on you and a fine for millions just like what happened to the APA over at AA.
And U goes chapter 7 maybe and you lose your pension or they stay in business and you get the PBGC and a new DCP.
3. The judge terminates your pension and you mutually agree to something.
So explain to me how you can win?
Zephyr:
Agreed!
One very important thing I missed in my previous post -- we absolutely MUST -- MUST -- MUST hire a professional negotiating team when further talks become necessary. We've done so poorly on this front it would be worth an assessment if ALPA won't pick up the tab! (read between the lines)
Dana
Agreed!
One very important thing I missed in my previous post -- we absolutely MUST -- MUST -- MUST hire a professional negotiating team when further talks become necessary. We've done so poorly on this front it would be worth an assessment if ALPA won't pick up the tab! (read between the lines)
Dana
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 1:27:41 PM pit76dr wrote:
Zephyr:
Agreed!
One very important thing I missed in my previous post -- we absolutely MUST -- MUST -- MUST hire a professional negotiating team when further talks become necessary. We've done so poorly on this front it would be worth an assessment if ALPA won't pick up the tab! (read between the lines)
Dana
----------------
[/blockquote]
Be vewy vewy kewful......
Professional negotiating teams are often part of the problem: All high-falootin' and no real world experience with the real problems employees face on a day in and day out basis.
One of the reasons many unions and their members have gotten themselves in a huge mess over the last 25 years is they listened to the advice of professional negotiating teams who were cut from the same corporate world cloth Labor-Friendly Siegel comes from.
I understand the impulse in the current situation, but.....
............Be vewy vewy kewful.......
-Airlineorphan
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On 2/22/2003 1:27:41 PM pit76dr wrote:
Zephyr:
Agreed!
One very important thing I missed in my previous post -- we absolutely MUST -- MUST -- MUST hire a professional negotiating team when further talks become necessary. We've done so poorly on this front it would be worth an assessment if ALPA won't pick up the tab! (read between the lines)
Dana
----------------
[/blockquote]
Be vewy vewy kewful......
Professional negotiating teams are often part of the problem: All high-falootin' and no real world experience with the real problems employees face on a day in and day out basis.
One of the reasons many unions and their members have gotten themselves in a huge mess over the last 25 years is they listened to the advice of professional negotiating teams who were cut from the same corporate world cloth Labor-Friendly Siegel comes from.
I understand the impulse in the current situation, but.....
............Be vewy vewy kewful.......
-Airlineorphan
Lavman you are just like the French.
***THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF A WIND-UP...IS THIS NECCESARY?PLEASE STICK TO THE SUBJECTS***
***THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF A WIND-UP...IS THIS NECCESARY?PLEASE STICK TO THE SUBJECTS***
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