Does anyone know if any of the JB, AirTrain, Spirit etc. employees have a Union. Seem to me that all they are doing is prostituting themselves out for below industry standard wages. Probably because most of them could never get hired by a Major Airline when things were good. Now the rest of us are going to loose the wages that we fought so hard to achieve because these Bozo's are working for peanuts. That is the real big part of the problem as far as I see it. If all the LLC employee's were making comparable wages Management would have no excuse to take away :angry: ours. WHERE ARE THE LLC UNIONS????
I think you were meaning to say LCC (low cost carrier) and not LLC (limited liability corporation)
No anger to the U and UAL employees who have given back pay benefits and pensions? No anger to the AA employees who voted to give up pay and work rules.
What do you feel towards the people who started at AA, and all the other early carriers,, before there were unions there? Were they prostituting themselves for not getting, or being able to get jobs in the good paying heavly unionized railroad industry?
I hope you are not really believing that anyone who works for a non legacy carrier is some how not as good as you. Some how not as worthy as you.
I work for AA and I have worked with some of the best F/A's in the business. I also fly with ( I wont say work because they seldom do) some of the most worthless P.O.S. f/a's in the business.
What do you feel towards the people who started at AA, and all the other early carriers,, before there were unions there? Were they prostituting themselves for not getting, or being able to get jobs in the good paying heavly unionized railroad industry?
I hope you are not really believing that anyone who works for a non legacy carrier is some how not as good as you. Some how not as worthy as you.
I work for AA and I have worked with some of the best F/A's in the business. I also fly with ( I wont say work because they seldom do) some of the most worthless P.O.S. f/a's in the business.
I believe Air Tran flight attendants are AFA. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.jimstras said:
MK
kirkpatrick said:
Taken from AFA's webpage......
AFA-CWA Represented Airlines
Alaska Airlines Allegheny Airlines Aloha Airlines
American Eagle America West Atlantic Southeast
ATA AirTran Hawaiian
Horizon Independence Air MidAtlantic
Midwest Airlines Miami Air Mesa Air
Mesaba Airlines Piedmont PSA
Spirit Airlines United Airlines US Airways
The grand-daddy of the LCC's is Southwest, which someone already pointed out has the highest percentage Unionized workforce in the air carrier business.
Coincidentaly, the LUV folks in Aircraft Maintenance make much more per/hr than the same folks here at AA.
Historically, it has been the Unionized TWU workers at American Airlines that lead the industry in introducing lower wages, poorer working conditions and internal outsourcing.
The Flight Attendants used to be TWU, they were smart enough to leave.
Coincidentaly, the LUV folks in Aircraft Maintenance make much more per/hr than the same folks here at AA.
Historically, it has been the Unionized TWU workers at American Airlines that lead the industry in introducing lower wages, poorer working conditions and internal outsourcing.
The Flight Attendants used to be TWU, they were smart enough to leave.
operaations
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Who the heck is this guy coming in here talking crap and he has no idea if the LLC have unionsjimstras said:
eolesen
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operaations said:
Looks like a troll.... but then again there's a chance he's just uniformed.
Jetblue is one of the few airlines that doesn't have a union on property for at least one workgroup. It's not because they're employing rejects from the majors -- they've got more applicants than they can interview.
There are also lots of former IAM, ALPA, and AFA members now happily working at Jetblue. Ask and you'll find that most are glad to be in an open shop. Having worked in a craft union shop for several years before coming to AA, I can certainly understand that point of view as both a member and now as a manager.
Former ModerAAtor said:
Well actually the TWU has done such a good job at turning workers against unions that people leave AA to go to Jet Blue. We had two Crew Chiefs and our manager of Quality Assurance quit AA and go to Jet Blue. One of the Crew Chiefs stopped by last week he said that the only difference is that he does not pay dues and he likes Jet Blue better. None of these guys were about to be laid off and they all had plenty of cushion.
We also had our station manager quit recently to go work as a mechanic for Emery or some other cargo outfit.
The Honeymoon is still in progress at Jet Blue. Wait till they get a little bigger and the first time they dont get a bonus you will see unions at JetBlue. However when they do go union the mechanics will go AMFA or IBT. The fact is they are New York based and most of the workers, even kids out of schoool have union expectations as far as holidays, Ot, raises, etc.
We should not try and blame these small low cost carriers for our ills, you are simply falling for managements propaganda if you do. No its our own fault for not ridding ourselves of our corrupt unions and replacing them with real ones.
If you think the LLC's which is actually LCC's (low cost carriers) are prostituting themselves and you think the lack of representation is the problem....you need to come out from under the rock you've been hiding under and learn a little about the industry!
Most of the LCC's are organized...except Jetblue.
Prostitution is at the regionals my friend. Most of them are represented (by that, I mean they pay dues) by ALPA....if you don't know who they are..the biggest union for pilots.
They have god awlfull work-rules, get paid below the poverty level and continue to grow as the legacy carriers shrink.
They are not even really airlines, they are more of an aircraft management company.
They charge legacy carriers fee's per segment...so they are more of a ACMI type company with a paint job reflecting the carrier they are contracted under.
PS....ACMI means Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance and Insurance....that's what they provide. And they make a profit on every flight, regardless of the load factor. Completion is usually the only terms of the contract with the legacy carrier. Sounds safe, doesn't it???
If you work for AA, you will notice that TSA and CHQ are two companies doing this for AA at this time. Both unionized!
Think about it, a JetBlue or Airtran captain on second year pay makes about twice as much per hour as the average 5 year captain at any given regional.
So before you make an uneducated statement, find out the facts, it isn't the LCC's (or LLC's as you like to call them) bringing down our wages nearly as much as the replacement, I mean regional, carriers.
Most of the LCC's are organized...except Jetblue.
Prostitution is at the regionals my friend. Most of them are represented (by that, I mean they pay dues) by ALPA....if you don't know who they are..the biggest union for pilots.
They have god awlfull work-rules, get paid below the poverty level and continue to grow as the legacy carriers shrink.
They are not even really airlines, they are more of an aircraft management company.
They charge legacy carriers fee's per segment...so they are more of a ACMI type company with a paint job reflecting the carrier they are contracted under.
PS....ACMI means Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance and Insurance....that's what they provide. And they make a profit on every flight, regardless of the load factor. Completion is usually the only terms of the contract with the legacy carrier. Sounds safe, doesn't it???
If you work for AA, you will notice that TSA and CHQ are two companies doing this for AA at this time. Both unionized!
Think about it, a JetBlue or Airtran captain on second year pay makes about twice as much per hour as the average 5 year captain at any given regional.
So before you make an uneducated statement, find out the facts, it isn't the LCC's (or LLC's as you like to call them) bringing down our wages nearly as much as the replacement, I mean regional, carriers.
- Thread Starter
- #13
Yes by the way I did mean LCC's thank you. I do not think I am better than those that work for non legacy carriers but I do have my standards or should I say a price. I could have gone to TWA back in the early ninties but didn't for a reason. No anger at UAL or US what they had was taken away from them by bankruptcy, they did not get hired into a company that offered below industry standard wages to begin with with not much future for them if any. Management loves to blame our high labor costs as reason to force consessions, those comparisons are made from somewhere, it is affecting my pay and yes I am pissed. If we all made comparable wages I dont think labor costs would even be much of any issue ,maybe they do make comparable wages, I doubt it but I could be ignorant of that too. Unions are not all they are cracked up to be but they are a start and wanted to know if they have even started if they don't have future of decent wages then we don't either. I know that some LCC's have not been around as long as us and that alone accounts for some of the differences but if other smaller airlines are not working toward those goals as a future then you and I have nothing to look forward but a time when we call it quits because we can no longer afford to work in this industry.FA Mikey said:
I apologize to those I offended in my first post. I should not have chosen such colorful dialoge.
"maybe they do make comparable wages, I doubt it but I could be ignorant of that too".
Maybe, before you go off on a tangent, you should do some research first.
The paycuts coming have little to do with the LCC's, although management loves to say that, it makes them look better. If you took all the LCC's, including SWA and AWA, they have less than 800 planes and while they are growing, they are flying about 25% of US passengers. ( In comparison, AA's website says:
The combined network fleet numbers more than 1,000 aircraft.)
What is forcing these economic changes, I think, is the current economy that is not too stellar, the very high cost of fuel, internet booking services and a few airlines that are horrendously mismanaged. The poster child would be U, an airline which, on occasion, has showed great promise and sitting on the largest customer base on the east coast, yet it has suffered under severly myopic management, who lastest changes has been to cut pay, three times in short order.
Now, the powers that be at UAL is seeing how this works, they are getting these paycuts, DAL and AA management seem only too willing to follow.
I think the legacies, due to their size and number of employees are driving these changes, what happens at UAL/AA has always had a driftdown effect on all airlines. At U, the "enemy" was always SWA, well U is now way below SWA in compensation, yet not many believe U will make it. UAL have gotten or are asking for huge paycuts, latest I think is another 750 m a year, yet 4th quarter, they lost 660m.
Maybe, before you go off on a tangent, you should do some research first.
The paycuts coming have little to do with the LCC's, although management loves to say that, it makes them look better. If you took all the LCC's, including SWA and AWA, they have less than 800 planes and while they are growing, they are flying about 25% of US passengers. ( In comparison, AA's website says:
The combined network fleet numbers more than 1,000 aircraft.)
What is forcing these economic changes, I think, is the current economy that is not too stellar, the very high cost of fuel, internet booking services and a few airlines that are horrendously mismanaged. The poster child would be U, an airline which, on occasion, has showed great promise and sitting on the largest customer base on the east coast, yet it has suffered under severly myopic management, who lastest changes has been to cut pay, three times in short order.
Now, the powers that be at UAL is seeing how this works, they are getting these paycuts, DAL and AA management seem only too willing to follow.
I think the legacies, due to their size and number of employees are driving these changes, what happens at UAL/AA has always had a driftdown effect on all airlines. At U, the "enemy" was always SWA, well U is now way below SWA in compensation, yet not many believe U will make it. UAL have gotten or are asking for huge paycuts, latest I think is another 750 m a year, yet 4th quarter, they lost 660m.
