Unions Prefer Bankruptcy

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
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Live to fight another day? And what day would that be?
A contract is in place that the company seeks to violate if you do not fight to defend it why have it in the first place? The airlines typically do not seek a short term bailout, they seek long term concesions, then if times are good when the contract is due they simply delay negotiations. History has shown that once you start giving concessions its very difficult to turn back and impossible to recover your losses. The concessionary trend from 1978 to 2001 cost a mechanic at AA a minimum of $150,000 in lost earnings, not counting what he lost in benifits. How much easier would your life be if someone walked up and gave you $150,000? That is what mechanics and other workers throughout the industry did over the last twenty years. This allowed the airlines to reduce ticket prices, extend service and expand thier fleets with more efficient aircraft while also making record profits in all but 6 out of the 22 years from 1978 to 2000.
We have sacrificed for 22 years, enough is enough, at what point would you consider drawing the line and saying beyond this we will fight?
 

Hopeful

Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
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AirWar:
The unions have nothing to lose by going to the bankruptcy courts. AA does not want a judge calling the shots.
 

AAmech

Veteran
Aug 22, 2002
766
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The problem for the employees is the Union has NOTHING to lose by letting the co. go Chap 11. If they actually sit down and seriously work something out they would immediatly be considered Sell Outs or Management Stooges and worse! Its better for them to let the situation get worse and let their members get hammered in BK court because it deflects all critisim to the court, the judge, managment or future finaciers. It boils down to a sad lack of character among any of our union leaders who are not willing to do the RIGHT thing for their members and take the flak that comes with it. The medicine we get in BK court will be far more bitter than what we can negotiate for ourselfs now.
 

Winglet

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Aug 20, 2002
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Your first mistake is reading that rag they call a newspaper in St. Louis. Your second mistake is believing anything they write.

Carty and Arpey called a meeting with American's labor unions for their so-called "active engagement" a few days ago, then didn't even bother to show up. When the meeting went on without any apparent point, the unions asked what the company "wanted" to which management's underlings had no answer.

Pure PR. Seemingly no plan to rationalize fares and marketing . . . . no plan to do much of anything except to spend millions in lobbying to defeat the RLA.

This is not encouraging.
 
OP
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Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
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Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?
 

Wild Onion

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Aug 21, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/25/2003 9:57:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?
----------------
[/blockquote]

Yes, the court will.
 

AirwAr

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Aug 21, 2002
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[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/Business/91FDDD4D21045DF686256CB90017300B?OpenDocument&Headline=American+Airlines+union+says+it+already+has+given+at+the+offi
e+-+for+20+years[?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice /][o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman] [o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman]Unions never cease to amaze me.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]Even after seeing what has happened to the contracts at UA & U, the unions prefer bankruptcy to voluntary givebacks.[o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][FONT face=Times New Roman] [o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt][FONT face=Times New Roman color=#000000 size=3]Since the battle cry appears to be full pay to the last day rather than live to fight another day, I think AA should enter bankruptcy as soon as possible.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]This should be done before our resources get any lower.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]Enter bankruptcy and allow the judge to impose wage concessions on the unions.[BR][BR][BR]With union members like you, who needs management?!?!?![/FONT][/P]
 

Buck

Veteran
Contributor
Aug 20, 2002
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www.fairtax.org
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 9:57:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:
[P]Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]For once Bob I agree with you. Those at AA woulf be better off than with a judge at Bankruptcy. I was just wondering where our wages would have been if the B-scale would have never materialized and Crandle would not have had his Window of Opportunity? Negoiated concessions without the aid of the courts. We should be careful and not negoiate to much away.
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
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[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]
[DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: lightgrey 0.75pt solid"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][BR]
[DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: lightgrey 0.75pt solid"][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][BR][FONT color=#000000]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 9:50:08 AM Bob Owens wrote: [?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /][o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][BR]
[P style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]Live to fight another day? And what day would that be? [BR]A contract is in place that the company seeks to violate if you do not fight to defend it why have it in the first place? The airlines typically do not seek a short term bailout, they seek long term concessions, then if times are good when the contract is due they simply delay negotiations.[o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]----------------[o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][BR]
[P style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000][BR]Well then maybe the “fightâ€￾ isn’t with management, it’s with your contract.[SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"] [/SPAN]How can you really expect the company to sign a contract that guarantees you something 3 years or more down the road? Did you see this economy coming? If so, why didn't you tell someone? Or better yet, why didn't you get it worked it into your contract. Sure, management uses its best guesse as to the future, but things change, obviously.[SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"] [BR][BR][/SPAN]So why is it that Southwest’s unions can build into their contract, items that automatically kick in to let them benefit when the company is doing well and share the pain when things are down?[/FONT][/SPAN][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000][BR][/FONT][/SPAN][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 9:50:08 AM Bob Owens wrote: [o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]History has shown that once you start giving concessions its very difficult to turn back and impossible to recover your losses. [o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]----------------[o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][BR]
[P style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]History has also shown that once an airline goes to bankruptcy, it’s only a matter of time till its demise.[o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][/P][/DIV][/SPAN][/DIV][/BLOCKQUOTE]
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
435
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www.usaviation.com
I read in another thread somewhere that the unions and management are playing a game of chicken.[BR][BR]I think a better analogy is that the unions are playing a game of chicken with a wall. Management is just along for the ride. Unforunately, the rest of us employees happen to be in your back seat.
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
435
131
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/25/2003 10:41:25 AM Buck wrote:

....We should be careful and not negoiate to much away.
----------------
[/blockquote]


HAHAHAHA!!!

How much negotiating did UAL mechanics do with their judge? But then again, maybe our judge will be more compassionate towards our mechanics. Ya, right!!!
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
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goldwatermiller08.com
Just so you know the United mechanics are negotiating now with UAL.

AA can save far more in proper utilization of crews and resources, than the proposed 3% pay freeze for the APFA and TWU represented employees.

Until AA gets serious, what's the point? After all the press releases, SR management was a no show at the union management meeting.
 
OP
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Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/25/2003 10:33:05 AM Wild Onion wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/25/2003 9:57:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?
----------------
[/blockquote]

Yes, the court will.
----------------
[/blockquote]

What makes you so sure? If the unions told the judge that they would resist any changes to thier contract now the judge would have to consider if the imposed concessions would cause more harm than good to the creditors.
 
OP
B

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/25/2003 11:49:00 AM AirwAr wrote:

History has also shown that once an airline goes to bankruptcy, it’s only a matter of time till its demise.


Just about every airline that went C-7 was able to gain concessions, apparently concessions do not make much of a difference. Better to stay at full pay till the last day, the extra money will help to carry you till your next job.
 

j7915

Senior
Sep 7, 2002
423
0
[blockquote]----------------On 1/25/2003 10:41:25 AM Buck wrote:


[BLOCKQUOTE]
----------------
On 1/25/2003 9:57:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:


Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]


[/P]For once Bob I agree with you. Those at AA woulf be better off than with a judge at Bankruptcy. I was just wondering where our wages would have been if the B-scale would have never materialized and Crandle would not have had his Window of Opportunity? Negoiated concessions without the aid of the courts. We should be careful and not negoiate to much away.----------------[/blockquote]

Well Buck look at the seniority list, you may have been hired, but many below you would not. In 1983 the retirement dates for the 727s was set, the 747s were gone, and the MD80s still on their initial long term loaner contract. Crandall would simply not have expanded as much.

Are there any judges out there who care for the workingmen enough to buck the financial interests? I have yet to hear of a ch11 where the workers did well, now the BK trustees and other legal beagles...
 

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