Upset Eagle Pilots

kiowa

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Aug 27, 2002
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copy of a letter going around in Eagle-land.

The following is a letter floating around Eagle attacking Furloughed American Pilots who are flowing back to Eagle CRJ Captain.

ATTENTION: FLOWBACKS
I am your First Officer. And you worst nightmare. You took my job. I was captain on this airplane, I had a lot of time on it, too, and a lot of other airplanes. I was a great captain with an excellent record, and I have experience in conditions you can scarcely imagine. Your knowledge, training, and experience are trivial compared to mine. But you decided to take my job and career from me. You do know what they call people who take other people''s jobs, don''t you? The word is scAAb, and you will be treated accordingly. As such, I will do only what is necessary to keep myself from getting killed or violated or fired, but beyond that you are on your own. I am not paid to do IOE, so I won''t give you any advice on anything. If I yell MY AIRPLANE real loud, let go, because I am trying to save my life and because you have screwed up. I have no respect for you and I have made it my purpose in life to get you fired. If you break the rules or do something stupid, it will be reported at once. If you break any FARs, I have the FAA on speed dial, and they will be informed immediately. I might feign mild friendliness, but it is just an act: I am sure that you have been instructed by management to report anyone who acts hostile to you, but I will also be trying to set you up: If you say anything that is sexist, racist, homophobic, politically incorrect, or offensive in any way, shape or form to anyone on the planet, I will file a Rule 32 violation against you. These black marks on your record will follow you everywhere you go in the future. If you are fired from Eagle for these violations, you will not be recalled to AA and there is nothing that APA can do about it, and you won''t be able to get a job towing banners. Just because you had the connections or interview skills or demographics to get a job at AA, do NOT pretend for one single moment that your skill as a pilot is superior to mine, or for that matter even remotely comparable. You are a shaved tail amateur compared to the flying I have done. You can expect me to constantly ridicule you abilities, however, the criticism will be unconstructive and designed only to make you feel rotten about yourself, which is something you desperately deserve. You made a serious mistake in opting to come to Eagle. You aren''t wanted here. You will be hated and despised. You will have no friends among Eagle pilots, and we will all endeavor to make your life as miserable as possible.It is only a matter of time before you or one of your ilk turns one of our fine airplanes into a lawn dart. On that tragic day, you can expect every single Eagle FO to become a Deep Throat not just for the benefit of the FAA and NTSB, but also for the press and public, creating a scandal that will destroy not just Eagle, but also AMR as a whole. Your coming here has created one of the worst Crew Resource Management problems in aviation history and it is all your fault. Because you have ruined our careers, we have nothing to lose. Eagle has the WORST contract in the business. Through experience, most of us have figured out how to cope with its weak points, but we won''t share any of this information with you. Your life will be a living hell. Ours has been for a long time, and your coming here has made it worse, and we will take it out on you.You are not the first to flowback. Many of those who came before managed to get out of it the only way they could: by activating their reserve commissions. They would rather be shot at in Iraq then continue to work at Eagle: Think about that!
You were warned to stay away. You demonstrated incredibly poor judgement in coming anyway. You are my enemy. You will be the scapegoat for all the bad things that have happened at Eagle. It is unlikely you will last long here. We are determined to get you off Eagle property either by getting you canned or driving you to the point where you run screaming off the property. Welcome to hell.
signed,
Captain X.
 
That has about as much class and merit as the APA-PDP's presentation stating that Eagle pilots do not have the skills to fly an RJ without crashing one. (Who was that lawyer they enlisted to put that presentation together? The O.J. Simpson guy. His name escapes me at the moment)

Anyhow, that letter sounds like a bunch of c--p.I hope the majority of our pilots have more sense than to be distributing it.
 
Kiowa,
I know you are posting what someone else wrote, so this is not directed toward you. As a soon to be furloughed AA pilot I have one main question for Eagle pilots: Why did you agree to the Flowthrough/Flowback agreement in the first place? I am not sure of the history, but it is my understanding not only did you agree to it, you fought for it!! I am all for terminating the whole agreement right now, if you have not actually left Eagle and flown with AA you can stay at Eagle for ever, this includes those who have seniority numbers, but haven't made the jump yet. I will not go to Eagle under any circumstances, as I can do much better without it and I don't need hours to get a job at a major (the only reason I could imagine anyone flying at Eagle), but if I did go to Eagle I would not think I was a SCAB for using the only benefit I received in the flowthrough deal, which was agreed to by all parties, including Eagle ALPA. This sounds like the TWA arguement: "Yes we did waive our Allegeny/Mohawk protections, but that was only to make the deal go through, now that that is past us, we want our protections back" or Eagle: "We agreed to the flowback only because that was the only way we could get flowthrough, but you are a SCAB if you flowback" people seem to be making deals they had no intention of keeping.
All of the threats show the true character of this particular Eagle pilot, and is probably why his career goal is to be an Eagle Capt. I wish no one had to flowback, and no one was furloughed, but to want to ruin someones life for accepting a job that is contractually his is beyond comprehension. If you hate the idea of flowback you shouldn't have accepted a job at Eagle, there are plenty of jobs out there where the big bad APA can't "take your job away".
 
Poor guy, I know the feeling.

After a long duty day and a quick change in your hotel room, you walk across the parking lot and find Chuck E. Cheese's just closed. You then have to settle for the same Happy Meal you had for lunch. After opening the bag, you find last weeks toy in it. You go back to your room and fire off an email in a fit of rage. At 05:30 am the next morning, calm and reflective after viewing the latest episode of the "TeleTubbies", you decide the email was a little harsh. Too bad, it's all over the internet.

It happens to everyone
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Eagle pilots love the idea of "flowthrough" as long as no one takes advantage of the contractually guaranteed flowback provisions. That shows professionalism and principles. ;)

Besides, it's not like the APA didn't just totally cave in on their scope clause re: RJs. Now that AE can fly more than 600 of them, look for AE to buy more as soon as vendors agree to provide 100% financing for them.

Plus, AE is still taking delivery of previously ordered RJs (about 100 during 2003-3005). So the Eagle pilots' careers are going to be better than they ever imagined, thanks to the APA.
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Except that flowthrough to AA is probably highly unlikely. But that isn't APA's fault.
 
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On 7/30/2003 10:06:48 AM B.N. wrote:

As a soon to be furloughed AA pilot I have one main question for Eagle pilots: Why did you agree to the Flowthrough/Flowback agreement in the first place? I am not sure of the history, but it is my understanding not only did you agree to it, you fought for it!!
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While I agree with some things that you have said, it is very obvious that you have no clue about the history of this situation. The Eagle ALPA pilot representatives were called to the negotiating table in Orcus Island by both APA and AMR to help fix their big problem about AMR's desire to have RJs flown at Eagle. Rightfully so, APA did not trust that management would not proliferate the use of RJs to the point that would take jobs away from APA pilots. AMR needed to use RJs at Eagle to compete with other feed carriers at the competition. They both came to an agreement on restricting the number of RJs at Eagle to 67 between 45-70 seat range. To prevent AMR from expanding Eagle and cutbacks at AA, they devised a costly flowback provision that would take furloughed AA pilots and put them in the Captain seats of the RJs at Eagle if they chose to furlough pilots.

Only one small problem. AMR and APA need Eagle ALPA to agree to let furloughed AA pilots take their Captain RJ positions if they furlough. Eagle ALPA asked what is in it for us. APA and AMR said we will give you guys 50% of all new hire pilot positions at AA in exchange for 100% flowback during furlough. Unfortunately our ALPA reps accepted the agreement. Even worse was what happened to the agreement when it was put into actual contractual language. The devil is always in the details. These details have enabled AMR to hire over 4000 pilots and only let 120 Eagle actual flow through pilots go to AA. Is this APA's fault? Absolutely not. Do they care? Absolutely not. These same type of contractual details have enabled AMR to hose APA during the first application of the flowback. Additionally, AMR had created a way of circumventing APA's Scope by having Embraer to manufacture a completely new RJ that is one seat under the Scope limit. This new EMB-140 44 seat RJ could be ordered and used with no restrictions from APA.

Eagle ALPA expects APA and AMR to honor the 4 party agreement. If anyone wants a change all have to agree. Even though AMR has prevented the true application of Supplement W/Letter 3 for pilots flowing up to AA, we are committed to honoring APA's full right to the displacement of approx 500 of our CJ Captain positions to furloughed AA pilots. Yes, there are going to be angry pilots at Eagle about what will happen. They have every right to be upset that the contract was not honored one way, but have to in the other direction.

Captain X has expressed his frustrated view of how he feels about the situation. This is but one individual at Eagle. The majority of the pilots at Eagle realize that the enemy is AMR not the AA pilot. It appears that the APA BOD has also become an enemy of the Eagle pilot also with there attempt to illegally take all future RJ Captain positions at Eagle. AMR does not want to pay for the displacement and training costs associated with the flowback of 500 furloughed AA pilots. Instead they have conspired with APA to just take all future RJ Captain vacancies instead. APA pilots have a right to displace 500 RJ Captains, but have no rights to our future RJ Captain vacancies. APA has teamed up with their ex wife and is about to get hosed again.

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I am all for terminating the whole agreement right now, if you have not actually left Eagle and flown with AA you can stay at Eagle for ever, this includes those who have seniority numbers, but haven't made the jump yet.

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I am sure most Eagle pilots would agree with you.

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I will not go to Eagle under any circumstances, as I can do much better without it and I don't need hours to get a job at a major (the only reason I could imagine anyone flying at Eagle), but if I did go to Eagle I would not think I was a SCAB for using the only benefit I received in the flowthrough deal, which was agreed to by all parties, including Eagle ALPA.

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You might want to educate yourself further on the advantages of exercising your flowback rights. The biggest of which is that you continue to accrue TOS towards pay and retirement at AA while at Eagle. No AA pilot who exercises their flowback right to Eagle is a "SCAB" by any means. The flowback pilot has every right to come to Eagle and should be respected like any other pilot. Captain X used a new word spelled "SCAAB" to express his feelings about AA flowbacks. What is a "SCAAB"? Ask Captain X.

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This sounds like the TWA arguement: "Yes we did waive our Allegeny/Mohawk protections, but that was only to make the deal go through, now that that is past us, we want our protections back" or Eagle: "We agreed to the flowback only because that was the only way we could get flowthrough, but you are a SCAB if you flowback" people seem to be making deals they had no intention of keeping.

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Does APA have the intention of keeping the deal they have with Eagle ALPA in Supplement W/Letter 3? Or are they willing to conspire with management to illegally snag all future RJ Captain positions at Eagle. Your APA BOD is an absolute joke.

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All of the threats show the true character of this particular Eagle pilot, and is probably why his career goal is to be an Eagle Capt.

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While I disagree with Captain X's threats, your comment about a carreer goal as an Eagle Captain shows your true character.

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I wish no one had to flowback, and no one was furloughed, but to want to ruin someones life for accepting a job that is contractually his is beyond comprehension.

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This is the most intelligent thing you have said so far.

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If you hate the idea of flowback you shouldn't have accepted a job at Eagle, there are plenty of jobs out there where the big bad APA can't "take your job away".

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If you hate the idea of flowthrough or flowback than you never should have accepted your job at AA. If APA wants future RJ Captain positions outside of Supplement W/Letter 3, than agree with AMR and put them on the property of AA not Eagle. For APA to even attempt to put pilots on our seniority list outside of any contractual agreement is beyond comprehension.

I have a message for all AA flowbacks. I respect you. I have no respect for your union BOD and what they are trying to do.
 
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On 7/30/2003 10:28:50 AM FWAAA wrote:

Eagle pilots love the idea of "flowthrough" as long as no one takes advantage of the contractually guaranteed flowback provisions. That shows professionalism and principles. ;)

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I would not stereotype or generalize about AA pilot's based upon one pilots comments. I would expect you not to do the same.

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Besides, it's not like the APA didn't just totally cave in on their scope clause re: RJs. Now that AE can fly more than 600 of them, look for AE to buy more as soon as vendors agree to provide 100% financing for them.

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You might want to educate yourself more on what changes to scope were made. The increases in RJ limits are for any supplemental carrier not just Eagle. A large number of people assume that it will only be Eagle. Besides, what APA chooses to do is their choice not mine. If they want something from Eagle ALPA in exchange for their relaxation of scope, than negotiate it with Eagle ALPA. Don't just expect to take all future RJ Captain positions at a separate company represented by a different union.

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Plus, AE is still taking delivery of previously ordered RJs (about 100 during 2003-3005). So the Eagle pilots' careers are going to be better than they ever imagined, thanks to the APA.
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You are so clueless about the situation. It is obvious that you are not a pilot. APA wants to displace up to 1000 CJ Captain positions at Eagle and take all future RJ Captain positions, and you state that:

"The Eagle pilots' careers are going to be better than they ever imagined, thanks to the APA."

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Except that flowthrough to AA is probably highly unlikely. But that isn't APA's fault.

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This is the only intelligent thing you have said.
 
CD nice post. I disagree with Captain X's letter also, but I do find most AAers misinformed about the flow up and back situation and what APA is trying todo. The recent diragatory comments about towards our captains and first officers on APA's site show just how ignorant and arrogant many can be. The FO's you will be flying with most likely will be far more qualified than you are MR.MRS Flowback. Not right out of college or lowtime. Most with 1000's of hours in the airlines alone (we are not here to build time so one day we can work at AA like you).

Maybe Cleared Direct can point out some differences in the original letter 3 and what APA wants now.

AE Pilot who has already taken his down grade and paycut.
 
Ok, so 120 eagle guys made it to AA. How many were fufilling lock-ins, and WOULD be on AA property, had the downsizing not occured?

Next question: How many former AA pilots are currently at Eagle?
 
Cleared Direct<
One more thing, you are incorrect about acruing time for pay and retirement. Our time at Eagle is treated the same as if we worked 10 yrs at Eagle prior to AA. Nothing for pay, nothing for retirement, not sure about vacation, counts for D2 travel. If the time did count for pay and retirement I agree that would change the picture.
 
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On 7/30/2003 3:00:31 PM jetdryvr wrote:

(we are not here to build time so one day we can work at AA like you).


jetdryvr,
Can you honestly tell me that when you were hired by AE that you planned on making it a career? Tell the truth now.
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Cleared Direct,
Like I said, I was not sure about "Flowthrough/Flowback" history, I gather you were around when it came into being. I have no problem with Flowthrough guys, it was the policy when I got hired, and you are right I wouldn't have taken the job if I did have a problem with it. I do have a problem with resistance from Eagle pilots to AA pilots using the flowback. I do not think they should be happy about it, I just don't think ANY anger should be directed at the individual pilot flowing back. I am getting bumped out of my current position all the way to the street, and I am not happy about it, but I am not going to look at the Master Shuffle and see who "took my place" and hold a grudge against them. I could be mad at AMR (I am not) or APA (I am not) or Jet Blue (I am not) or ALPA Regional Carriers (I am not) or Osama Bin Laden (I am) but I have no right to be mad at the individual who by no fault of his own is "taking my job".
 
18 out of over 100 chose to come to AE last time. Currently several are on Mil leave. The point is APA is the one that does not want to play by the way Letter 3 was written instead they want to alter it to work better for them. Listening to and reading APA propaganda and questions it is apparent that APAer's are all looking for someway to take advantage of coming back to AE wit hout actually having to come here for 2 years or follow the rules. The agreement good or bad is what we have so why not just follow it instead of trying to change things for the betterment of AA and detriment of AE.
 
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On 7/30/2003 8:31:02 PM B.N. wrote:

Cleared Direct<
One more thing, you are incorrect about acruing time for pay and retirement. Our time at Eagle is treated the same as if we worked 10 yrs at Eagle prior to AA. Nothing for pay, nothing for retirement, not sure about vacation, counts for D2 travel. If the time did count for pay and retirement I agree that would change the picture.

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B.N.,

Here is the text from your original Supplement W agreement:

________________________

1997 APA Collective Bargaining Agreement

Supplement W: AA Emp Opp + Furlough Prot.

SUPPLEMENT W
SUPPLEMENTAL AGREEMENT

IV. Furlough Protection at AMR Eagle, Inc. for Pilots Furloughed from AA.

F. A furloughed AA pilot’s seniority for bidding purposes at AMR Eagle, Inc. will be based on length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough from AA. Such pilot’s length of service for pay and benefit purposes shall be the combined length of service at AA and length of service at AMR Eagle, Inc. accrued following furlough from AA. The only pilot who can displace a furloughed AA pilot from the position of CJ Captain is a more senior furloughed AA pilot.
_________________________


Your APA BOD have hosed you big time if the new agreement with AMR takes away your TOS toward pay and retirement at AA while you serve time at Eagle. I have a copy of the latest confidential agreement between AA and APA, but it might not be all that has been agreed upon to today's date. In fact only this week has APA even published what they actually did agree to with AMR during the concessionary agreements. They are holding off on publishing the Supplement W, CRJ-700, and Small Jet Agreement because the original ones that they agreed to were illegal and not enforceable. Mr. Kasher is going to spank APA and AMR next month and make it very clear to them. Below it is discussed in the July 28th APA Hotline:

________________________

This is Gregg Overman, APA Communications Director, with the APA Information Hotline for Monday, July 28.

FINAL CONTRACTUAL LANGUAGE: Final contractual language for our recently negotiated agreement is posted for your reference to the APA Web Site. You can access this language on the Members Home Page via the “Contract Languageâ€￾ tab at the top of the page. We have not included Supplement W implementation language, CRJ 70 or other small-jet contractual items. We will not be able to conclude these items until we receive Arbitrator Kasher’s ruling on four related grievances and have the opportunity for further discussion with management.
________________________

I can't believe that even APA would give up your contractual right to continue to accrue TOS toward pay and retirement at AA. It is possible though. If not you might be swallowing your words about never going to Eagle. If you change your mind good luck flying with First Officer "Captain X"!
 
Dogdriver,

You are correct I did not come to AE or plan on staaying as a career. I often hear The AE guys are building time or I do not need to flowabck to AE to build time. My point is most of us are not here building time most of us are highly qualified many more so than alot of new hires at the mainlines. So we do not need the derogatory comments about AE pilots abilities. Not only do we meet all the same standards (plus our training is harder) we fly at the same speed, altitudes, airports, and enviorment ect. One thing we do do though is alot more of it than most main liners. A recent comment on the APA board referred to the right out of college zit popping AE pilots. This could not be any further from the truth. Captain X's post was unprofessional and uncalled for but I bet history shows we both have a few guys and gals like that.

B.N. It is not the flowback we are complaining about it is the fact that APA does not want to follow it how it is written. They insist on making better for them and worse for us. Although they had no interest when the flow up was not working correctly.
 

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