US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Richard]

As indicated at the end of the other thread, you all need to read the rules of the board again at the top of the US Forum before continuing this discussion......

Keep on topic, and STOP THE PERSONAL COMMENTS, INSULTS, ATTACKS and NAMECALLING......

Suspensions have been issued....

 

[cactusboy53]

ebwqs asked: "Um, didn't America West make a fuel stop in BK court?"

Um, yes....about TWO DECADES AGO, and came out on the other side. Here's a piece of straw to grab at........ 🙄

 

[ebwgs]

ebwqs asked: "Um, didn't America West make a fuel stop in BK court?"

Um, yes....about TWO DECADES AGO, and came out on the other side. Here's a piece of straw to grab at........ 🙄

Yes they filed 18 years ago and came out just 15 years ago. I remember it well. As an HP employee at the time I still have a few worthless ESOP certificates and an old t-shirt from that R-E-S-P-E-C-T campaign. Whether 2 decades ago or 2 days ago, once an alumnus of Chapter 11 you're always an alumnus. Wear that class ring with pride. You're still working!

 

[Hate2fly]

I am still having trouble with the ripeness issue that Judge Tashima and Graber were having.

Graber is asking.......... "what was the act as distinct from future stated intention"

Tashima jumps in with a question about Ramey. Page 278/279..........for these reasons we do not require or even permit union members to bring suit against the union, simply because the union has announced its future intention to breach its duty

Graber again asked what did they do?

............In November they wrote a memo!

Good luck!

Hate

 

[cactusboy53]

Yes they filed 18 years ago and came out just 15 years ago. I remember it well. As an HP employee at the time I still have a few worthless ESOP certificates and an old t-shirt from that R-E-S-P-E-C-T campaign. Whether 2 decades ago or 2 days ago, once an alumnus of Chapter 11 you're always an alumnus. Wear that class ring with pride. You're still working!

And yet we didn't come nearly as close to Chapter 7 as the old US Air did. Class ring says OC (for Original Cactus), and proud to be so. I am still working, but sadly there are 140+ AWA pilots that were furloughed out of seniority order and trying to make a living elsewhere. Criminal behavior has brought this upon them. Shame, shame, shame....

Now where did I place that extra piece of straw.........

 

[luvthe9]

I am still having trouble with the ripeness issue that Judge Tashima and Graber were having.

Graber is asking.......... "what was the act as distinct from future stated intention"

Tashima jumps in with a question about Ramey. Page 278/279..........for these reasons we do not require or even permit union members to bring suit against the union, simply because the union has announced its future intention to breach its duty

Graber again asked what did they do?

............In November they wrote a memo!

Good luck!

Hate

Bingo, we have a winner!!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

I am still having trouble with the ripeness issue that Judge Tashima and Graber were having.

Let me help you out then.

Graber is asking.......... "what was the act as distinct from future stated intention"

She was asking about the facts of the Ramey case and you need to listen to Dr. Jacob's answer. In Ramey the limitations began to run two months prior to the final negotiations. The union distributed a memorandum to all employees informing them of a bargaining position the union intended to negotiate. The Ramey court deemed that to be enough to trigger the commencement of the running of the statute of limitations - BEFORE THE CBA. Also in the Ramey case the court talks about the ripeness and limitations and how the two relate in time. Ripeness, by law, begins to run at the time of limitatios OR BEFORE. The Ramey court treated the memo - standing alone - to constitute a form of anticipatory repudiation. Now, stack those facts against USAPA's acts. All the roadshows, all the NAC and BPR updates, and the quintessential gift from USAPA to the plaintiffs was the delivery of a DOH list to the company. It was after Judge Graber's question about the Ramey facts that she launched her hypothetical. Then she asked Dr. Jacob what USAPA has done. He outlined it as is. The best was Dr. Jacob's recounting of how USAPA flat out told Judge Wake they'd never implement the Nic. Dr. Jacob summed it up well when he said "yes they could injure us more, but they injured us already." The plaintiffs in Ramey were deemed injured with much less.

Tashima jumps in with a question about Ramey. Page 278/279..........for these reasons we do not require or even permit union members to bring suit against the union, simply because the union has announced its future intention to breach its duty

You need to listen to the response. The footnote was there to explain that the Ramey court understands that negative statements normally do not trigger a claim, but in this (the Ramey case) they do. It's not really that different from what the Rakestraw court did in having to be extra careful in explaining why they were doing what they were doing. The reason for this extra caution is due to the willingness of all the ambulance chasers out there to take a sentence out of context and blow it into a proposition that it isn't. Seham nevertheless tried to take Rakestraw completely out of context and that's the reason Judge Wake characterized Seham's interpretation of Rakestraw as a slender reed that does not support USAPA's elephantine proposition.

If the facts of Ramey triggered limitations (thereby ripness as well, if not before limitations) then where does that put USAPA?

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Wasn't Leeham on video in the campaign phase saying that dumping the Nic was a "SLAM DUNK"?

The pilot club was warned not to go public but they were so driven they couldn't help themselves. Bradford was warned when he was lawyer shopping but didn't take some sage advice. 😱

Does anyone honestly believe this group was formed for any other reason?? :huh:

I'm still waiting on the better, cheaper, faster than ALPA group....they showing up anytime soon? It's been 2 years and the best this bunch can do is blame every thing on ALPA. :down:

ALPA is gone, you're in the drivers seat, you've got the majority. How about showing us you can make it work rather than always pointing a finger at someone else.

 

[East Hole]

And yet we didn't come nearly as close to Chapter 7 as the old US Air did. Class ring says OC (for Original Cactus), and proud to be so. I am still working, but sadly there are 140+ AWA pilots that were furloughed out of seniority order and trying to make a living elsewhere. Criminal behavior has brought this upon them. Shame, shame, shame....

Now where did I place that extra piece of straw.........

Just throwing a little reality into the equation. Could it be that US Airways was closer to Chapter 7 than A@W because that little event called 9-11. That day forever change things for many of us that were already in this industry for years. Many out west because of tunnel vision forget that DCA was closed for a long time and a huge percentage of US Airways flight were cxld for long periods of time. I get the impression that many out west like to forget history and just blame US Airways problems on lousy management and far from the truth lousy employees. Because it make little people feel better about themselves and what they actually bring to the table. I hate to see any pilot furloughed and I hope to see them all come back soon. However that thing called reality enters the picture again. Without the merger Doug and Scott both said that A@W would shrink and there would be pilot layoffs. Since we have separate seniority list those pilots were furloughed by DOH which is what they earned when they were hired at A@W. Nothing more and nothing less!!!!!

 

[SparrowHawk]

Wasn't Leeham on video in the campaign phase saying that dumping the Nic was a "SLAM DUNK"?

The pilot club was warned not to go public but they were so driven they couldn't help themselves. Bradford was warned when he was lawyer shopping but didn't take some sage advice. 😱

Does anyone honestly believe this group was formed for any other reason?? :huh:

I'm still waiting on the better, cheaper, faster than ALPA group....they showing up anytime soon? It's been 2 years and the best this bunch can do is blame every thing on ALPA. :down:

ALPA is gone, you're in the drivers seat, you've got the majority. How about showing us you can make it work rather than always pointing a finger at someone else.

Everytime I wander onto this thread it never ceases to amaze me how a group of people who are skilled enough to fly and land large planes can't see the forest for the trees.

Everyday there is no contract Doug Parker wins. The money he saves, plus what you spend fighting is gone forever. Oh I know it's the principle of the thing and what's fair. NEWS FLASH, It's business and no where in modern business is there room for fair. You get what you negotiate plain and simple. If you're litigating instead of negotiating then both pilot groups have already lost.

Every day that you fail to unite against the common enemy is a day you lose money out of your pocket. Principle is a wonderful thing to stand on. However it's not nearly as helpful as cold hard cash when it comes to wife #3's alimony or that really nice boat you have in a marina on Long Beach Island now is it?

Money talks and Bullshite walks and so far after how many years all you have is Bullshite. How's that working for you?

 

[Megasnoop]

I am still having trouble with the ripeness issue that Judge Tashima and Graber were having.

Graber is asking.......... "what was the act as distinct from future stated intention"
Tashima jumps in with a question about Ramey. Page 278/279..........for these reasons we do not require or even permit union members to bring suit against the union, simply because the union has announced its future intention to breach its duty
Graber again asked what did they do?............In November they wrote a memo!
Good luck!

Hate

Tashima had to read that quote to West lawyer. I still dont see any significance in the 10 second pause. You got to collect your thoughts and their doctor turned lawyer was careful to swallow before talking. As I said before, if this gets sent back to Wake on ripeness alone, then Wake cost both sides over $3M that neither will ever get back. If ripeness is the issue and also classified by the Ninth as a matter of law, it may not be appealable to SCOTUS. What do I know, but I did say 14 months ago Loeonidas had ripeness problem.

And yet we didn't come nearly as close to Chapter 7 as the old US Air did. Class ring says OC (for Original Cactus), and proud to be so. I am still working, but sadly there are 140+ AWA pilots that were furloughed out of seniority order and trying to make a living elsewhere. Criminal behavior has brought this upon them. Shame, shame, shame....Now where did I place that extra piece of straw.........

Criminal behavior. Same old song. We've heard enough of that. And if you lose on ripeness? What will you say then? On the furloughs out of seniority order. You've already lost that one in arbitration. At least an arbitrator doesn't see criminal there.

At PI we got a reasonable seniority in the U merger, but there are guys on both sides who will take to the grave that they got screwed. At PI/U, 2 companies both in fairly good financial shape. You talk about U near Ch-7. On being near Ch-7, PSA was within days of going under. When they got saved, their pilots got pretty much DOH.

One mistake you make trying to understand East thinking is not understanding age differences. You didn't get the 2001 MEC Emails and letters telling anyone hired after 1990 that they better look for another company, because their odds of getting back to U were near zero. The smart, younger guys took that advice and started over, some at AWA, in fact. AirTran, JBlu, many of the majors. Already CAs or well up the FO list of their new company, they didn't come back when they got the last chance letters last year. So the average age of east pilots went up faster than the years going by. When retirements start again in 2012, our median age will be near 59 and we'll go through almost 1/2 the list in 4 years. When I fly with the over 60 guys, I get the same answer to NIC/Contract/DOH. They got an additional 5 years they never counted on. It's like their now playing with house money. They don't care if the place goes out of business or not. And for me, that's the scary part. Worst case for them, the 62 year-old gets about $3550 PBGC, maybe more from the pension investigation going right. Make it to 65 and it's $4500. Add early social security to PBGC and their working for 50 cents on the dollar at 62. Another thing I see is they seem to get sick alot. Their careful about not flying sick and getting all their medical ducks lined up. These are what's going on, CB53.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

And yet we didn't come nearly as close to Chapter 7 as the old US Air did.

Which was a direct result of September 2001.......You know the day that changed our profession forever as we know it. It was also the day the rest of the airline industry and their management teams (THIS TIME OUTSIDE of AZ) declared open season on LABOR.

So short of another cataclysmic economic event that took place back in the 90s....Refresh my memory what event caused such a financial powerhouse as AWA into BK? Surely it wasn't the level of compensation of it's employees. Mesa entered the market? Inquiring minds would like to know. Or were you still in grade school back then?

Class ring says OC (for Original Cactus), and proud to be so. I am still working, but sadly there are 140+ AWA pilots that were furloughed out of seniority order and trying to make a living elsewhere. Criminal behavior has brought this upon them. Shame, shame, shame....

Didn't know that AWA had a college......Is that the fabled Rio Salado Community College or the W.A. Franke School of Business?
Criminal behavior out in AZ - say it ain't so. You guys have Dougie's best friend Sheriff Joe watching your back. Not going to happen on his beat.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Then let's inflate the payscales for F/Os.

 

[nic4us]

I am still having trouble with the ripeness issue that Judge Tashima and Graber were having.

Hate

I find it troubling also, but probably not for the same reasons as you. I find it troubling that usapa thinks it okay to run afoul of the justice system, and clings to what amounts to a minor technicality for their defense. Whether the 9th finds the West's claim as ripe or not makes no difference. usapa has still used dastardly tactics to steal from the West, what rightfully belongs to the West. usapa is nothing more than a thief in the night, caught without the loot.

From A. Hemenway's letter.

"In spite of that injunction, USAPA has not modified the date-of-hire seniority integration requirement contained in its constitution and bylaws in any way. Nor has the union withdrawn or altered the unlawful date-of-hire seniority proposal it presented the company last year." he also talks of how usapa is attempting to get different contract arrangements for the West and east in regard to sick policy, also in violation of the injunction.

From Cleary's reponse to the NMB.

"pending appeal"

If usapa is not granted a stay, you are in huge trouble. If the 9th upholds Wake, you are done. The West now has a company document showing direct violation of the injunction and further attempts at harming the West. I would not be at all surprised if federal marshalls show up in CLT to escort usapa officers with their dictionaries to PHX where they can read to the court the definition of "Immediately".

 

[ChockJockey]

Everytime I wander onto this thread it never ceases to amaze me how a group of people who are skilled enough to fly and land large planes can't see the forest for the trees.

Everyday there is no contract Doug Parker wins. The money he saves, plus what you spend fighting is gone forever. Oh I know it's the principle of the thing and what's fair. NEWS FLASH, It's business and no where in modern business is there room for fair. You get what you negotiate plain and simple. If you're litigating instead of negotiating then both pilot groups have already lost.

Every day that you fail to unite against the common enemy is a day you lose money out of your pocket. Principle is a wonderful thing to stand on. However it's not nearly as helpful as cold hard cash when it comes to wife #3's alimony or that really nice boat you have in a marina on Long Beach Island now is it?

Money talks and Bullshite walks and so far after how many years all you have is Bullshite. How's that working for you?

Of course you are right, but they won't listen. They've invested so much emotional and financial resources into this dispute that to simply admit to its futility would be very painful indeed. Truly, even being vanquished by one's opponent is preferable to admitting the war was a mistake, what after all the losses.

There is nothing quite so reaffirming of the realness of human nature than two rabbles so in love with and endeared to their own outrage and pride. Behold, the golden calves of Acronyms and Legalese. Ah, but to read the mind of Fate!

Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war.