US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oldiebutgoody]

The supposed delta guy is part of the ALPA presence on this board. Along with the BMW guy. Imagine paying dues, to fund this stuff. They spend more tome here than their supposed airline boards. You figure it out. They always know how to solve our issues too........

The ALPA organizing guys must be urinating in their dungarees over this. It means that if they are not considerate of their members' needs, they may get the boot. I don't think they ever even cared about any carriers besides United and Delta. They just figured whatever they did would stick, and nobody could or would do anything about it. That's why all the shills started showing up here again. They think that just by saying crap like, "the company already accepted the NIC" that it makes it so. I think that maybe they are trying to convince themselves that they didn't lose.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

From what I’ve read elsewhere, things are not quite as rosy as you would have us believe between the DL and NW pilots… despite what you claim! While it has not been so acrimonious as with AAA and AWA, as has been said here before, the LOS differential was dramatically less in most cases. Further, as I recall, this seniority integration had 3 arbitrators not one and the contract had already been negotiated before the seniority integration took place so everyone knew exactly what was in store for them before hand.

It was ALPA’s structure, not clearly defined merger policy and FUD that created much of this mess… and yes it did involve the local MEC… the majority of which was made up of the give-away gang!

ALPA should have a clearly defined merger policy. One that includes numbers and a general set of C&Rs, so that you could figure where you'd be in any merger from just the two lists. Sending your "dirty laundry" to an arbitrator that may or may not fully understand all the implications of seniority and airline working conditions is STUPID!

Any merger policy that contains unquantifable concepts like "career expectations" and "company financial condition", this day in age, are not worth the paper they are printed on. They are just attempts around using DOH as the solution.

ALPA SUX! Now go away!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I have read the opinion and I read it again with the same opinion. There is a big warning in there that if you don't represent the West interests, you will face a ripe DFR suit. The Addington case already has shown that if you deviate far from the Nicolau it will be easy to prove DFR, it wasn't really close. You can blame Judge Wake, but the jury was not impressed by your arguments the first time, maybe the second time is the charm.

Yes, to be sure the 9th contained that warning that any contract must be fair to the west pilots. But they also mentioned that the Nicolau shame not necessarily be part of the deal.

You westies had your day in the court of the RLA-clueless judge and his tendency to not let the jury hear the whole story. It's doubtful that will happen next time. Even if it does, there will be another appeal to the 9th and this time they will have to rule on fairness instead of the ripeness.

The courts have found that DOH with fences and restrictions meets the burden of fairness. An IMPARTIAL judge and jury will see the Nicolau list for what it was....a windfall for the west. And they will hear ALL the supporting evidence from both sides, or it will be appealed so that the 9th can then judge the fairness of the trial.

Get your wallets ready. You won't get the Nicolau list. It's dead.

 

[nycbusdriver]

How long before that DOH list passed. This month, this year?

If it's dead usapa should pass it soon right?

It was passed to the company quite a while back (last September, I think). The NAC came off of that proposal when the injunction was issued. But the LOS list with conditions and restrictions was passed.

 

[nycbusdriver]

OK ALPA got tanked. When are you guys going to let it go? 10 years from now are you still going to be crowing about how you got rid of ALPA?

The American pilots crow about it every now and again.....and that was 50 years ago. Why not relish hard won victories over evil establishments?

 

[cleardirect]

The West isn't stapled in DOH. By the time this gets sorted out some Westies can hold a 330 left seat
and they will share upgrades as well not just ahead of someone who has been here 10-15 years longer.
You keep forgetting that WAKE severly restricted OUR evidence. He said NIC was not on trial. Well it will be next time.
Explain to the jury that the 25 year FO who is 55 WILL NEVER BE a Captain but the 30 year old
AW senior to him will and he will be a Capatin for 35 years......under NIC. Can't wait for that one.

NPJB

When DOH places 80% of the west pilots BELOW furloughed pilots it is a staple. At the PID the west had 1853 pilots. Using the east proposed LOS not even DOH you were magnanimously willing to allow 363 of 1853 senior to Dean Colello a furloughed guy. Our junior captain goes from number 1087 to 4604 a los of 3517 numbers. Using DOH the bottom half of the list get hurt even worse. While the east pilot one number junior to that west pilot only loses 60 number using a combined LOS. 60 number compared to 3517.

There are no C&R in the world that are going to make up for that.

Using Nicolau an east pilot within sight of upgrade remains in sight of upgrade the west pilot never sees upgrade. Using Nicolau the FO are a 2/3 ratio, for every 3 upgrades the east gets 2. Our junior captain using LOS has about 750 active and 450 FURLOUGHED FO’s placed senior to him. That is 1200 east FO’s that will keep him on reserve for the rest of his career. That is 1200 east FO’s standing the way of the first west upgrade. So if the east captures every one of the 300 retirements a year it is 4 years before the first west pilot sees the left seat. The first 1200 fo vs. 2/3 ratio. Explain that career expectation to a jury. Explain that windfall to a jury.

But you have made all of these arguments in front of an arbitrator. You lost. He did not see anyway to make DOH fair. There is no way you can make the case that placing 80% of your list in front of west pilots is fair. How do you have a guy that was furlough come back senior to west captains? You made you case you will not get a redo.

Take a look around. Find any integration that does that. Most integration place furlough at the bottom of the list. You guys want 450 furloughed pilot senior to our captains. Try explaining that to a jury. Then toss in that 90% of the economics go to the east also. I don’t think the jury will need the full 90 minutes it took the last jury.

80% of the seniority and 90% of the economics.

USAPA=DFR

 

[oscarjazz]

The supposed delta guy is part of the ALPA presence on this board. Along with the BMW guy. Imagine paying dues, to fund this stuff. They spend more tome here than their supposed airline boards. You figure it out. They always know how to solve our issues too........

Why is it that you guys are obsessed with ALPA? Really obsessed. I am a line pilot at Delta, I fly 767's, just got back from Milan Sunday (nice clothes, the calzone was just OK). My next trip is in a week it's a domestic 3 day with a double SEA layover. If you get an opinion that contradicts your wacky theories on life, then you try to attack the individual. I am sure that this is not what National ALPA thinks, but I hope beyond hope that you guys do not come back to ALPA. I know that is your wish too. When you were in ALPA, you spent like drunken sailors (apparently still spending like drunken sailors), and your union now is creating a giant liability by messing with an established seniority list. I personally don't want to have to pay for your lunacy. So please, do not come back to ALPA, let your own pilots pay for your fool's quest. I don't know how to be any clearer than that.

So no matter how many times you try to make up things about me or the other people on this board, they are not true. I have no position at ALPA and don't want one. You guys seem almost permanently detached from reality, so I am sure you will just make up a new story that has no bearing on the facts. Oh well.

 

[AWE Dog]

It was passed to the company quite a while back (last September, I think). The NAC came off of that proposal when the injunction was issued. But the LOS list with conditions and restrictions was passed.

USAPA can't use the NIc list even if they wanted to. The 9th mentions that USAPA would then be open to a DFR from the East Pilots.

 

[AWE Dog]

When DOH places 80% of the west pilots BELOW furloughed pilots it is a staple. At the PID the west had 1853 pilots. Using the east proposed LOS not even DOH you were magnanimously willing to allow 363 of 1853 senior to Dean Colello a furloughed guy. Our junior captain goes from number 1087 to 4604 a los of 3517 numbers. Using DOH the bottom half of the list get hurt even worse. While the east pilot one number junior to that west pilot only loses 60 number using a combined LOS. 60 number compared to 3517.

There are no C&R in the world that are going to make up for that.

Using Nicolau an east pilot within sight of upgrade remains in sight of upgrade the west pilot never sees upgrade. Using Nicolau the FO are a 2/3 ratio, for every 3 upgrades the east gets 2. Our junior captain using LOS has about 750 active and 450 FURLOUGHED FO’s placed senior to him. That is 1200 east FO’s that will keep him on reserve for the rest of his career. That is 1200 east FO’s standing the way of the first west upgrade. So if the east captures every one of the 300 retirements a year it is 4 years before the first west pilot sees the left seat. The first 1200 fo vs. 2/3 ratio. Explain that career expectation to a jury. Explain that windfall to a jury.

But you have made all of these arguments in front of an arbitrator. You lost. He did not see anyway to make DOH fair. There is no way you can make the case that placing 80% of your list in front of west pilots is fair. How do you have a guy that was furlough come back senior to west captains? You made you case you will not get a redo.

Take a look around. Find any integration that does that. Most integration place furlough at the bottom of the list. You guys want 450 furloughed pilot senior to our captains. Try explaining that to a jury. Then toss in that 90% of the economics go to the east also. I don’t think the jury will need the full 90 minutes it took the last jury.

80% of the seniority and 90% of the economics.

USAPA=DFR

It's truly unbelievable that the rest of the airline was so unfairly merged.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes, to be sure the 9th contained that warning that any contract must be fair to the west pilots. But they also mentioned that the Nicolau shame not necessarily be part of the deal.

You westies had your day in the court of the RLA-clueless judge and his tendency to not let the jury hear the whole story. It's doubtful that will happen next time. Even if it does, there will be another appeal to the 9th and this time they will have to rule on fairness instead of the ripeness.

The courts have found that DOH with fences and restrictions meets the burden of fairness. An IMPARTIAL judge and jury will see the Nicolau list for what it was....a windfall for the west. And they will hear ALL the supporting evidence from both sides, or it will be appealed so that the 9th can then judge the fairness of the trial.

Get your wallets ready. You won't get the Nicolau list. It's dead.

Courts don't rule on fairness they rule on law.

A court does not decide if it was fair that you killed someone just that you pulled the trigger.

The next case will not be a redo of arbitration. No federal court has that authority.

 

[oscarjazz]

There was no BIG WARNING in the 9th either. Total fabrication.

By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members — both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

I don't know what you think that is, but that is a judicial shot across the bow. Judges don't make belligerent statements like pilots on webboards do, they speak in muted tones. That is about as frank as you will ever get from a judge or judges. They are warning you.

 

[luvthe9]

Why is it that you guys are obsessed with ALPA?

Maybe it has something to do with them giving us false information which ended up in our pension beibg given away, I think they also paid the UAL guys 45 million in that suit and now that TWA guys won part one of there 100 million DFR suit against, Also when we get started with tem it might bring down the house!!! can't wait for that, glad you had fun in Milan!!!!

 

[AWE Dog]

I west pilots idea of being harmed is not being able to hold a 330 captain seat ahead of 2800 east pilots.

 

[banshee74]

Haven't posted here in a long time...but I'd like to pose a question to the "west" pilot's that populate this board.

Maybe a simplistic history, but here goes. Negotiations for a merged list....no agreement. Goes to arbitration, arbitration ruling. Not liked by one side....new union (for many reasons), no implementation of arbitration due to contract requirements. Lawsuit filed for the non-implementation. Union found at fault. Union files appeal. Lower court judgment ruled "not ripe". Now, probably an appeal of the 9th ruling.

So far, both "sides" have pursued legal and just actions to have their agenda prevail. Both sides have properly tried to represent the interests of their folks. If ALL these actions were not taken, then I would say someone was deficient in the protection of their side's interests.

We are close to and end of possible "process". En banc, Scotus, but the end is possibly near. So here is the question.....if the state of the seniority integration remains without the NIC, and all available legal avenues exhausted......What then? DOH will never fly,even among many East folks. NIC will never be viable either (at least to the East).

IS there some middle ground that is achievable????? Or do we just flounder around until a merger and the process is maybe more in favor of some other entity?

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA can't use the NIc list even if they wanted to. The 9th mentions that USAPA would then be open to a DFR from the East Pilots.

Where does it say that?