US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES
- Thread starter Richard
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Very important point on the last post prior to being locked. If you frame the argument that the East is trying to TAKE from the West you get what you get all of these emotional arguments that the very basis of is faulty. How does the East take anything. Seat protection is industry standatrd. You won't be a Captain for 10-15 years. Guess what....of all things uncertain in this business it is when you will upgrade. The person responsibble for your now delayed checkout is the people who put the deal together. There are a lot of us guys who wanted to hold blocks on the widebodies...guess what the age 60 rule changed. Sucks short term but great long term. But look what the East gave up. We sent 30-40 airplanes back to the lessors...just to get this deal done. I believe we even parked a bunch more. We gave up our pension. We took massive paycuts just to keep this dog alive. Now, you get an arb who USED THIS VERY THING AGAINST US. In fact, please correct me if I am wrong. But NIC actually wrote that US pilots GAIN 21 million in contract improvements under AWA. WOW lucky us. That old pay parity thing you fought remember that. Then after NIC, 500 guys returned to work. ON THE BOTTOM of NIC but moving up fast when attrition kicks in without NIC. U will be hiring like crazy out EAST when attrition kicks in. . To answer your question 767jetz....these guys are entitled to use their time in service when they come back and not a single soul out EAST objects to that when a SEAT OPENS UP...if that time in service is longer that some AWA guy with less.... so be it. The problem with the Westies and some non-US posters is simply you just don't know the story here. We would not forever have 1700 on furlough. We run short all the time. We will be hiring soon. We KNEW that if we stayed in business then those 1700 or a good percentage would be coming back to work. Just like we knew that when all of the give backs kicked in the CO would make money assuming fuel at a reasonable level. The whole snapshot procedure is faulty and everone here knows it. Let me ask you this how many of you EVER though the aviation Gods would see DAL in bankruptcy. If AMR files for BR and decides to park 150 airplanes and to do a merge....when does their snapshot come...right after they furlough 2000 guys. The system is flawed and our merger proves it. There were some hurt fellings when US/PI went DOH but a pebble in a pond compared to this hurricane called the NIC. We blame no one out West. Just you know who.... who got it wrong.....real wrong.... Would dearly love to know NICs opinion on how his work is viewed since he ruled from above. By the way...had a SW guy on the jump the other day. Almost fell out of the seat when I told him that new hires were put above a 17 year never furloughed guy. Peace in the Middle East will be easier to achieve than here. Amazed that Parker does not realize this.
NICDOA
NPJB
CallawayGolf
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- Nov 13, 2009
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Reply to East Hole post #646 on previous thread:
You (East) didn’t bring wide body aircraft to the merger; what you brought was your name and position on a seniority list. Based on your position you could fly in whatever A/C and seat your seniority position could hold that the Company was operating. Under the NIC your seniority number was integrated with those on the West who also had a seniority number and flew in the A/C and seat their number could hold. The NIC doesn’t change those basic principles and it uses an imbalanced ratio system of two east pilots for every one west pilot which, along with the top 517 protected east positions, refutes any contention that the NIC favors the West over the East.
So, with a 2:1 ratio advantage over West pilots and with more equipment, including WBs, and more international routes, your conclusion is speculative at best and thus without merit. No one can say what would have happened at either company absent the merger. As such, it is pointless to even discuss the “what if” scenarios. The reality is that East pilots, like West pilots, have a new seniority number on the NIC list which likely allows them to fly the same A/C and the same seat position they could hold prior pilot groups being integrated. The rest is just lamenting about lost utopian dream of a future that may never have been a factual reality.
You (East) didn’t bring wide body aircraft to the merger; what you brought was your name and position on a seniority list. Based on your position you could fly in whatever A/C and seat your seniority position could hold that the Company was operating. Under the NIC your seniority number was integrated with those on the West who also had a seniority number and flew in the A/C and seat their number could hold. The NIC doesn’t change those basic principles and it uses an imbalanced ratio system of two east pilots for every one west pilot which, along with the top 517 protected east positions, refutes any contention that the NIC favors the West over the East.
So, with a 2:1 ratio advantage over West pilots and with more equipment, including WBs, and more international routes, your conclusion is speculative at best and thus without merit. No one can say what would have happened at either company absent the merger. As such, it is pointless to even discuss the “what if” scenarios. The reality is that East pilots, like West pilots, have a new seniority number on the NIC list which likely allows them to fly the same A/C and the same seat position they could hold prior pilot groups being integrated. The rest is just lamenting about lost utopian dream of a future that may never have been a factual reality.
cleardirect
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- May 24, 2008
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Wide body, wide body, wide body. I am sick of listening to you guys whine about your wide bodies. You had 19 POS airplanes. They pay dirt bag wages. All of your pilots get paid nearly what your 76 pilot get paid.
Currently there are 268 captain and 443 F/O seats available. That is up from what you brought to the merger. So unless you were in the top 10% you were never going to fly as captain ever.
Captain AAA
330 $160.00
76 $144.00
320 $125
AWA 320 $142.00
F/O
330 $109
76 $98
32085
AWA F/O
320 94
If wide bodies were so important to you guys than you should have moved off of DOH/LOS and protected the WB. But you wanted it all.
Now if you guys would accept the Nicolau we could get a better contract. $160 an hour is standard for a narrow body. If you guys would have accepted Nicolau 3 years ago ALL your captains would have been making what your few WB captain are making. The F/O can expect $100.00- $110.0 per hour. So ALL of you F/O would be making what just a few of your WB F/O’s are making. So the greed of ALL of you have kept ALL of us from gaining anything.
So what is it? It can’t be the money because you would have accepted a contract and moved on. The only thing I can think of is it has to be ego. That somehow you think of WB pilots as better than everyone else. Personally I got into aviation to make money not stroke my ego. If a dash 8 paid enough money I would fly that.
So what is it going to be? Look at this logically and finally get paid or hold out for years so you can impress the boys in the crew room by saying you are a WB pilot?
Currently there are 268 captain and 443 F/O seats available. That is up from what you brought to the merger. So unless you were in the top 10% you were never going to fly as captain ever.
Captain AAA
330 $160.00
76 $144.00
320 $125
AWA 320 $142.00
F/O
330 $109
76 $98
32085
AWA F/O
320 94
If wide bodies were so important to you guys than you should have moved off of DOH/LOS and protected the WB. But you wanted it all.
Now if you guys would accept the Nicolau we could get a better contract. $160 an hour is standard for a narrow body. If you guys would have accepted Nicolau 3 years ago ALL your captains would have been making what your few WB captain are making. The F/O can expect $100.00- $110.0 per hour. So ALL of you F/O would be making what just a few of your WB F/O’s are making. So the greed of ALL of you have kept ALL of us from gaining anything.
So what is it? It can’t be the money because you would have accepted a contract and moved on. The only thing I can think of is it has to be ego. That somehow you think of WB pilots as better than everyone else. Personally I got into aviation to make money not stroke my ego. If a dash 8 paid enough money I would fly that.
So what is it going to be? Look at this logically and finally get paid or hold out for years so you can impress the boys in the crew room by saying you are a WB pilot?
cleardirect
Veteran
- May 24, 2008
- 6,234
- 9,749
Ah! It goes back to the old "I will never upgrade under Nicolau" argument.
There are only 660 west F/O's. 1393 east F/O's.
That is 660 out of a total of 3915 bidders. West F/O's make up 16.8% of the total pilots on property.
Here is the distribution.
East capt. 30%
East F/O 35%
West capt. 17.5%
West F/O 16.8%
As you can see the east has more F/O's than capt. The west has more capt than F/O's.
At 2 for 1 It is kind of hard to say that that the west f/O's are going to have much effect blocking the east F/O's.
But you guys go on believing what you want and stay at LOA 93 wages dreaming about someday or days past.
PullUp
Veteran
- May 22, 2010
- 820
- 736
Seniority, seniority, seniority. Drives everything in this job. Vacation, line-holder (or not), equipment, pay.
We're all here to make money...but we also know how temporary those hourly wage numbers can be.
Wanna talk about working for 45% less money next month? Lived through it. It's amazing how quickly the wages can be cut versus how long they take to be restored.
Bankruptcy taught a very valuable lesson: the most valuable contract item any pilot has is his seniority.
Have a nice day.
CallawayGolf
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- Nov 13, 2009
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If seniority is so all-important to the east, why did you (collectively) not proffer a workable compromise solution at the negotiation or mediation phase rather than going for DOH which had an extremely low probability of success? Nicolau told the East that DOH wasn’t going to happen in his award and that the East should modify their demand for DOH. Instead of acknowledging that DOH was a failed pursuit, the East left the final decision to a binding arbitration process and to an arbitrator with a penchant for using a ratio integration methodology. Not a very wise way to protect something considered to be of paramount importance. The time for discussing the merits of a combined seniority system passed about three years ago.
Your correct 3 years pass and where are we, actually what we see is EAST assets EAST slots and EAST growth , talk about PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE, sorry don't see any WEST slots transactions or value, there is a workable solution C&Rs , ALPA process like ALPA, pension , policies gone,bad rubish, unlike WEST risk and stagnation, your correct, WEST stagnation is a problem as CLEAR TA-9 , an arbitrated situation years to come! MM!
So the greed of ALL of you have kept ALL of us from gaining anything? Let me get this straight your recent posts about USEAST LOA 93 for retirement is GREED! Man PHX law school is accepting APPS it would suit your needs! MM! That truly is the most laughable thing ever posted. That even tops "CONTRADICTION" in webster! To make money? And AWE was your CAREER CHOICE?
Whats even funnier is you spent 2mill plus to make that point! So DOH with CRs is bad for a better contract why? Make your point before the laughter, is gets deafining! MM! Sounds like risk Mngmnt to me!
Crzipilot
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- Mar 23, 2004
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Wow, an pilot saying he got into this job to make money, BUT YET HE CHOSE THE LOWEST PAYING COMPANY that was out there, with the worst work rules.
Granted the West is a little better NOW after TWO concession agreements. Or wait, he was furloughed from his first choice after 9/11, and well AWA was basically the only one hiring for a small point in time, and he needed a job, so he bit the bullet and went.
Only 660 West f/o's huh??? And probably the majority of them are younger than 90% of the East f/o's. So that basically means, that eventually, AFTER the west guys take the movement created by the EAST retirements, the East f/o will upgrade, but will retire behind someone younger, who was hired 10 years after he was....
Yup...swell deal for an extra 10k a year.....NO thanks.....
Oh and, Uhmmm...how 'bout those that are slated to be in the top 10% for the last 10 yrs or so of our career??? Guess those positions should goto the '05 hire at AWA......Yup....sounds fair...
Granted the West is a little better NOW after TWO concession agreements. Or wait, he was furloughed from his first choice after 9/11, and well AWA was basically the only one hiring for a small point in time, and he needed a job, so he bit the bullet and went.
Only 660 West f/o's huh??? And probably the majority of them are younger than 90% of the East f/o's. So that basically means, that eventually, AFTER the west guys take the movement created by the EAST retirements, the East f/o will upgrade, but will retire behind someone younger, who was hired 10 years after he was....
Yup...swell deal for an extra 10k a year.....NO thanks.....
Oh and, Uhmmm...how 'bout those that are slated to be in the top 10% for the last 10 yrs or so of our career??? Guess those positions should goto the '05 hire at AWA......Yup....sounds fair...
Now CRIZ c'mon your being selfish not accepting the NIC(80% would say NO, yes that includes some top 500, excluding N924PS)but hey that ROUGE union give me an"INTEGRITY MATTERS" T that was hilarious! MM!
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