US Pilots Labor Discussion-8/12 to 8/19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Richard]

Another week another pilots thread.

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Also, please remember that we no longer edit posts with offensive comments--they are deleted without question.

Thank you.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Can you explain how the US Air/Trump Shuttle was not DOH? Apparently the East pilots think DOH is a principle only when it benefits them.

You don't have to google it, Delta has had four major integrations in the last 40 years and all were status and category ratios. The last four major airline integrations (US Air/ Trump Shuttle, Atlas/ Polar, US Air/ Am West, DL/ NW) were all ratios of some sort. The last major pilot DOH integration was in 1986.

By the way, ALPA had no authority to "dump your pension." That can only be done by a bankruptcy judge and only in specific circumstances. Remember the PBGC has to accept the pension for insurance payments, so it is not a slam dunk until the judge bangs his gavel. Before you attack back, my pension was lost in bankruptcy too, so don't feel like the lone ranger.

Quote:
Thanks for doing the googling for me. The Atlas/Polar deal was nasty. I don't recall the particulars of the Trump deal but no matter.

I can't agree with you that ALPA had no authority to "dump our pensions" I will not attack you back because I have a good deal of empathy for all of us on the pension score. That includes you. Wasn't there an ALPA person whose first name started with a "D" and whose last name started with a "B" who was VERY instrumental in having our pension dumped? You can name him if you wish but his last name rhymes with Michael Vick's last name.

By the way, my screen name indicates that I lived on a farm for a long time. No union on a farm! Just very hard work!

 

[BoeingBoy]

pi brat,

I have heard the same about the pension termination - the judge saying that he couldn't terminate it since it was covered by the contract and the MEC agreeing to the termination. I have no firsthand info one way or the other although one thing about the story always puzzled me. The BK judge has the authority to abrogate the contract but can't terminate the pension because it's covered by the same contract he can abrogate any or all of? Doesn't sound quite kosher.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

pi brat,

I have heard the same about the pension termination - the judge saying that he couldn't terminate it since it was covered by the contract and the MEC agreeing to the termination. I have no firsthand info one way or the other although one thing about the story always puzzled me. The BK judge has the authority to abrogate the contract but can't terminate the pension because it's covered by the same contract he can abrogate any or all of? Doesn't sound quite kosher.

Jim

Jim,

Yep, kind of hard to unravel. I guess in the end you have to go with the version your gut says is true. I know one thing, it was a whole lot easier to have a good union with a thriving company.

 

[oscarjazz]

I can't agree with you that ALPA had no authority to "dump our pensions" I will not attack you back because I have a good deal of empathy for all of us on the pension score. That includes you. Wasn't there an ALPA person whose first name started with a "D" and whose last name started with a "B" who was VERY instrumental in having our pension dumped? You can name him if you wish but his last name rhymes with Michael Vick's last name.

By the way, my screen name indicates that I lived on a farm for a long time. No union on a farm! Just very hard work!

I don't know anyone in the old East ALPA except a few names, I work for a different airline. I have seen a strange tendency in the East pilot group to try to find a single demon for these problems, it sounds like DB, whoever he is, has been demonized for the pension.

You need to look up ERISA law, we could go back and forth like this forever. I would just like you to contemplate a federal law that would give one union official the power to make such a far reaching decision, one that dumped hundreds of millions of liability onto the PBGC, an organization that creates liability for the government. Doesn't that sound a little arbitrary to you? I also assume that DB lost his pension, so I am still looking for the motive here.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't know anyone in the old East ALPA except a few names, I work for a different airline. I have seen a strange tendency in the East pilot group to try to find a single demon for these problems, it sounds like DB, whoever he is, has been demonized for the pension.

You need to look up ERISA law, we could go back and forth like this forever. I would just like you to contemplate a federal law that would give one union official the power to make such a far reaching decision, one that dumped hundreds of millions of liability onto the PBGC, an organization that creates liability for the government. Doesn't that sound a little arbitrary to you? I also assume that DB lost his pension, so I am still looking for the motive here.

Yep! The east pilot like to blame an individual and ALPA for all of their troubles. I guess that keeps them from blaming themselves.

One of the reasons that usapa reps must wear uniforms at all times. I was told a story that during one of the contract negotiations. ONE negotiator went to the bar with a company rep and over an expensive bottle of wine penned a contract. The reason they were in the bar was because the pilots was not in uniform. It would have kept him out of the bar.

Now does this make sense? That a single member of the negotiating committee over a bottle of wine. Acquiesces to the company demands. Then convinces the rest of the committee to go along with it. Then the committee goes to the MEC and convinces them that it is a good deal. The MEC puts it out to the pilots. Then a majority of east pilots vote to implement that contract bought by an expensive bottle of wine.

Most of these stories don’t even make sense but the east pilots have made big decisions because of them. But mostly it removes the blame from the pilot group themselves. Which is really why we are here. Refusing to accept responsibility for their decisions.

 

[exB717Flyer]

What I don't get about the pension thing is the obviousness of it: bankrupt airline = lost pension. That's how it's always been and how it always will be. No union could've saved the USAirways pension.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Oscarjazz,

Oscarjazz said: "I don't know anyone in the old East ALPA except a few names, I work for a different airline. I have seen a strange tendency in the East pilot group to try to find a single demon for these problems, it sounds like DB, whoever he is, has been demonized for the pension. You need to look up ERISA law, we could go back and forth like this forever."

USA320Pilot comments: Oscarjazz, your comment regarding ERISA and changing pension rules is correct. Former ALPA MEC Chairman Bob Gaudioso wrote an Unibased Facts OpEd column on this subject. To read Bob's comments click here.

In addition, former ALPA MEC Chairman Chris Beebe wrote an Unibased Facts OpEd column discussing some of the misconceptions of ALPA and some things regarding USAPA, which is an interesting read. To read Chris' comments click here.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[skyflyr69]

Yep! The east pilot like to blame an individual and ALPA for all of their troubles. I guess that keeps them from blaming themselves.

One of the reasons that usapa reps must wear uniforms at all times. I was told a story that during one of the contract negotiations. ONE negotiator went to the bar with a company rep and over an expensive bottle of wine penned a contract. The reason they were in the bar was because the pilots was not in uniform. It would have kept him out of the bar.

Now does this make sense? That a single member of the negotiating committee over a bottle of wine. Acquiesces to the company demands. Then convinces the rest of the committee to go along with it. Then the committee goes to the MEC and convinces them that it is a good deal. The MEC puts it out to the pilots. Then a majority of east pilots vote to implement that contract bought by an expensive bottle of wine.

Most of these stories don’t even make sense but the east pilots have made big decisions because of them. But mostly it removes the blame from the pilot group themselves. Which is really why we are here. Refusing to accept responsibility for their decisions.

:angry:

At least they used discretion unlike that AWA crew from a few years back.

 

[Phoenix]

Pension, smension.

It ain't about whether or not the pension should have been given away... we have already seen plenty of folks who think they know enough to unilaterally make the decision on behalf of everyone else...

Its about whether or not the people who pay dues have a right to vote or if they are too stupid to vote and thus need privileged elite to ignore them and do what is best for the elite. We have seen the eventual end of that paradigm.

Stay tuned... It now appears the electorate is too stupid and un-American to understand/handle a vote on health care.

 

[cleardirect]

:angry:

At least they used discretion unlike that AWA crew from a few years back.

Well there is an uncalled for and off topic remark.

Do you feel better about yourself now?

Anything to say about the east pilots failing to take responsibility for their actions?

 

[cleardirect]

Pension, smension.

It ain't about whether or not the pension should have been given away... we have already seen plenty of folks who think they know enough to unilaterally make the decision on behalf of everyone else...

Its about whether or not the people who pay dues have a right to vote or if they are too stupid to vote and thus need privileged elite to ignore them and do what is best for the elite. We have seen the eventual end of that paradigm.

Stay tuned... It now appears the electorate is too stupid and un-American to understand/handle a vote on health care.

I think we have found the basis for misunderstanding. Your pension was not given away. It was lost or taken from you.

You complain about not having a vote. The east pilots had no choice. The east pilots could have voted 100% to not lose your pension. Would that have stopped it or changed one dollar? NOPE!!!!

What was the alternative to the judge taking your pension?

On some things a vote is irrelevant. If usapa had taken a vote to see if usapa was liable of DFR? Would it change the outcome of the trial?

 

[Pilot692]

pi brat,

I have heard the same about the pension termination - the judge saying that he couldn't terminate it since it was covered by the contract and the MEC agreeing to the termination. I have no firsthand info one way or the other although one thing about the story always puzzled me. The BK judge has the authority to abrogate the contract but can't terminate the pension because it's covered by the same contract he can abrogate any or all of? Doesn't sound quite kosher.

Jim

He can"t dump it because it is a dual signatory defined plan. The only way anything happens to it is when both parties to the document sign off. That is why the judge couldn't touch it. It had to be given away.

 

[Pilot692]

What I don't get about the pension thing is the obviousness of it: bankrupt airline = lost pension. That's how it's always been and how it always will be. No union could've saved the USAirways pension.

Absolutely false. As the future will demonstrate.

 

[HPDriver]

Absolutely false. As the future will demonstrate.

Demonstrate what? That your super sleuths are going to find out that there were some back-room shenanigans that caused you to lose your pensions?

Good luck. You've got a better chance of winning your appeal and getting your snapbacks.