US Pilots Labor Discussion

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cleardirect

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May 24, 2008
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Question.

Is there a potential outcome of the LOA 93 arbitration that would position LCC to file for BK? And if so, would that ability enable LCC to redraw this thing totally and completely outside the current lines?

jm
Withdraw what thing totally and completely outside what current lines? Sorry I don't understand your question?

Are you talking about fragmentation?
Changing the T/A and getting rid of the block hour mins?
Imposing a new contract?
Not living up to the arbitration if usapa wins the LOA 93?

Not sure what you are asking.
 

Justme

Veteran
Feb 29, 2004
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Withdraw what thing totally and completely outside what current lines? Sorry I don't understand your question?

Are you talking about fragmentation?
Changing the T/A and getting rid of the block hour mins?
Imposing a new contract?
Not living up to the arbitration if usapa wins the LOA 93?

Not sure what you are asking.

Redraw, not withdraw.

Answers:
yes
yes
yes
yes (legally)
 

CallawayGolf

Veteran
Nov 13, 2009
1,920
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Question.

Is there a potential outcome of the LOA 93 arbitration that would position LCC to file for BK? And if so, would that ability enable LCC to redraw this thing totally and completely outside the current lines?

jm
I personally think the LOA93 grievance is a total loser. I believe it was advanced through arbitration as a means of diverting attention away from USAPA's inability to negotiate a JCBA and its inability to get a DOH seniority list accepted by the company or a court. I suspect USAPA is highly fearful that if they can’t deceive the east pilots into falsely believing there is some hope of increasing pilot wages before mandatory retirement, that they will be removed from power. So USAPA’s game of lies and deception will continue so long as they are in power and are yet unable to deliver a meaningful benefit to the pilots.

Now, having said that, I will entertain your question and assume that there is even the slimmest of chances of seeing LOA93 come in for the east pilots. If that were to happen, it would not lead to an immediate bankruptcy. Knowing how Doug responds to financial threats of insolvency, I would expect him to put his full focus on keeping US out of bankruptcy. However, that would require concessions or a JCBA with lower labor costs than the new status quo. If USAPA is unwilling to make those kind of company-saving concessions, then bankruptcy might just be inevitable.

If the company files for bankruptcy, you can certainly expect the company to request relief from the pilot debacle caused by the east pilots reneging on their SLI award and also request relief from the newly restored east pilot wages. In short, I believe a bankruptcy filing would eventually result in a full resolution of this mess. If USAPA resists or the MIGS vote down the concessions, the bankruptcy judge will impose the contract amendments on the pilots. Remember, it was the threat of the bankruptcy judge doing more damage to the pilots’ wages and livelihood that caused the east to vote in LOA93 in the first place. It has happened before and it will happen again should a bankruptcy filing occur in the future.

One thing is certain - no matter what happens, USAPA will fail to bring any enhancements to the pilots. They are unwilling and incapable of accepting the truth about binding arbitration, they are unwilling and incapable of representing all of the pilots of US Airways, and USAPA thus has no chance of achieving unity. Without unity, the USAPA will get nothing except the recognition that they are inept, neutered, and irrelevant to anyone but themselves.
 
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traderjake

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The top 517 are in DOH order from the east. The rest are slotted, until you get to the "furloughed", and as it turns out many of the weren't actually furloughed, and they were stapled. As it turns out, they actually were mainline positions, even if they were not originally intended to be. How about Republic and Frontier? Were only the "mainline" EMB pilots the ones on the top?

Are those top 517 reserved for life? Will you make it to one?

Maybe you should read page 26 of the award, where Nic talks about DOH.
"4. The first 161 positions as Captain and the first 262
positions as First Officers on the A330 and B767, or
replacement aircraft as herein defined, shall be
reserved for the top tier pre-merger US Airways pilots
for a period of four years from the date of this Award.

5 Reinserting the pilots extracted from the top of the list brings the
total number to 517 rather than 423. However, more than 70% of that
difference is made up of pilots on long-term medical leave and of
those most have been on such leaves for more than two years."

The wide body flying was protected by slotting the first 517 East pilots at the top of the list allowing them to hold or bid those positions before the first West pilot.

It had nothing to do with DOH.
 
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Black Swan

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Dec 13, 2009
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Just like you saw 1700 furloughs coming your way but stayed at US Airways. Just like you saw the 2 BK coming your way but stayed hoping for something better.

You guys can't see the tracks you are standing on and the train speeding towards you.

Possibility of a base closing. Why is it you think we laugh at the useless C&R? Because we do see PHX shrinking or closing and there is no protection. Straight DOH no thinks. We will stick with the min block hours and our base. No more furloughs because of the T/A. No something usapa can or will get in a new contract.

Dude are you really that out to lunch? How is Glass going to eat our lunch? The west is not even at the table. It is east NAC. If he eats our lunch you guys never had lunch to start with. Enjoy LOA 93 that is what you are going to retire on.
You will know it AFTER his settles in for some nice dining. Division, already here. He'll make it worse. Tighten down on your sick time. Get ready for many notes requested, when not required. Calls from C/P office. Think the grievance issue is bad now? It gets worse. Short staffing, their pleasure. Cancelled vacations? Sorry his specialty. All they need is a nice event to lay it on you, by the way, it is already scripted. They love guys like Metro and Clear. They play right into the script, until the noose tightens. Then they figure it out. Too late. He loves cocky know it all pilots. He has dealt with them before. Successfully I might add.... Batter up! Oh, did I tell you- you are the ball......You are his friend right now, and he is happy about that. I say he is here because of the LOA 93 win coming.A win if you are an East pilot. The rest of you lose on this round.... You guys are not going to be happy. You will act up. He has a plan. We lose? There is trouble there, he is here for both possibilities. All to protect Doug and Co. and their cash. You will be between him and it. Jerry is here to make sure he gets is, then Jerry gets his. Enjoy! I would listen to Sparrowhawk on this one. He knows what he is talking about.
 
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Pi brat

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Jan 25, 2007
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"4. The first 161 positions as Captain and the first 262
positions as First Officers on the A330 and B767, or
replacement aircraft as herein defined, shall be
reserved for the top tier pre-merger US Airways pilots
for a period of four years from the date of this Award.

5 Reinserting the pilots extracted from the top of the list brings the
total number to 517 rather than 423. However, more than 70% of that
difference is made up of pilots on long-term medical leave and of
those most have been on such leaves for more than two years."

The wide body flying was protected by slotting the first 517 East pilots at the top of the list allowing them to hold or bid those positions before the first West pilot.

It had nothing to do with DOH.

I swear, if I didn't know you Dad was a Pan Am pilot I'd think you were Jim's son. :rolleyes:

Aren't those top 517 in DOH order, unlike the rest of the list? I think they are unless there are a few Shuttle guys in there. When Nic slotted the rest of the list did he put all 757 captains and F/Os, then all AB and 737 captains and F/Os? No, he didn't. At the top he put A330 captains and F/Os (slots), for the rest he put captains first(slots). He stapled anyone he considered furloughed(maybe ALPA's fault?), even though there were several hundred pilots flying aircraft on the US Airways certificate, just like we did with Metrojet. He used three different methods for slotting into one list. He also used slots from 2007, but supposed status from 2005, so that guys that had moved into vacated east positions were stapled.

We are arguing over semantics.

Here is a clip from Nic:

"Though Date of Hire, whether adjusted for Length of Service or not, is no longer listed as a determinant or even stated as a integration criterion, there are occasions when considerations should be given to that factor. Here US Airways is far older than America West, a fact reflected in the average age difference between the groups. Consideration must also be given to the different career expectations based on equipment flown. US Airways pilots fly wide-body international aircraft, while America West pilots do not."

So the top 517 east pilots got some consideration for their age and on wide-body flying but not the rest of us. In many cases, for the rest of our careers he gave west pilots that option first.

I actually agreed with a lot of what Nic says in his award, I just can't see how he got from what he said to how he made the list.
 
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Pi brat

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Jan 25, 2007
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They're the top 517 positions on the East seniority list.

Are there any Shuttle pilots in the top 517?

If there was it was not DOH order.
You don't know! I thought you knew it all. I remember the look of disdain and disgust when you would talk about your fellow pilots, and you don't know but you are talking about it! Look it up. How did you like that quote?
 

Black Swan

Veteran
Dec 13, 2009
2,894
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I swear, if I didn't know you Dad was a Pan Am pilot I'd think you were Jim's son. :rolleyes:

Aren't those top 517 in DOH order, unlike the rest of the list? I think they are unless there are a few Shuttle guys in there. When Nic slotted the rest of the list did he put all 757 captains and F/Os, then all AB and 737 captains and F/Os? No, he didn't. At the top he put A330 captains and F/Os (slots), for the rest he put captains first(slots). He stapled anyone he considered furloughed(maybe ALPA's fault?), even though there were several hundred pilots flying aircraft on the US Airways certificate, just like we did with Metrojet. He used three different methods for slotting into one list. He also used slots from 2007, but supposed status from 2005, so that guys that had moved into vacated east positions were stapled.

We are arguing over semantics.

Here is a clip from Nic:

"Though Date of Hire, whether adjusted for Length of Service or not, is no longer listed as a determinant or even stated as a integration criterion, there are occasions when considerations should be given to that factor. Here US Airways is far older than America West, a fact reflected in the average age difference between the groups. Consideration must also be given to the different career expectations based on equipment flown. US Airways pilots fly wide-body international aircraft, while America West pilots do not."

So the top 517 east pilots got some consideration for their age and on wide-body flying but not the rest of us. In many cases, for the rest of our careers he gave west pilots that option first.

I actually agreed with a lot of what Nic says in his award, I just can't see how he got from what he said to how he made the list.
You all are airline historians. Interesting, but you only tell the story of why this is so screwed up. Kind of like studying the Civil War to figure out why we are where we are right now. The Nic was like something from those times, a proposal, like keeping slavery in certain states, and out of others in order to balance power. Are any of those decisions in force today? No, but they influenced things at that point in time. The Nic will NEVER stand. You read what the 9th said. Has it influenced anything now? Absolutely. But it has to be looked at in a historical context. An event that happened at a point in time, and influenced airline history. It took USAirways out of ALPA. It caused a historic rift in airline labor at same airline. Is it going to be something going forward? Absolutely not. Merely a blip on the way to another way of integrating these two groups. You can study Nicolau all you want. It is interesting, but it has no relevance going forward. All it did was divide two pilot groups, and take ALPA off the property. The fact ALPA was taken off the property will have more import than the internal battles we now have. They will be decided shortly, and is an INTERNAL union dispute. Nothing more or less.
 
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Metroyet

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Nov 1, 2008
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You said it!
Jerry Glass is one of the most talented business men working today. In any industry. Instead of irrational fears of him, I suggest you all respect and embrace his presence. However minuscule his dealings with your airline are, count yourselves undeservingly fortunate to have him.

He is among the finest leaders of our time...a time where true leadership is non-existent.
 
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Black Swan

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Dec 13, 2009
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Jerry Glass is one of the most talented business men working today. In any industry. Instead of irrational fears of him, I suggest you all respect and embrace his presence. However minuscule his dealings with your airline are, count yourselves undeservingly fortunate to have him.

He is among the finest leaders of our time...a time where true leadership is non-existent.
And this, is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Metroyet may actually BE Gerrold Glass!
 
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traderjake

Veteran
Aug 30, 2002
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You don't know! I thought you knew it all. I remember the look of disdain and disgust when you would talk about your fellow pilots, and you don't know but you are talking about it! Look it up. How did you like that quote?

Reneging on a mutually agreed upon arbirtation is disgusting.

If you want to argue that the top 517 keep their DOH and you didn't, fine.

DOH is not the reason they are at the top of the NIC list, they were slotted there to protect the WB flying.
 
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