US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

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Richard

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Dec 15, 2005
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OK we try again with the Pilots' Labor Thread.....we continue to delete posts and issue suspensions--I will remind you that some of the posting on here is inappropriate and brings discredit to the posters, their side of the argument, and the profession in general.

PLEASE observe the rules and stay on topic...NO PERSONAL REMARKS, NO FLAME BAIT.

Thank You.
 
OK we try again with the Pilots' Labor Thread.....we continue to delete posts and issue suspensions--I will remind you that some of the posting on here is inappropriate and brings discredit to the posters, their side of the argument, and the profession in general.

PLEASE observe the rules and stay on topic...NO PERSONAL REMARKS, NO FLAME BAIT.

Thank You.

Prechilill wrote:

"Holy cow Tony looks great! That is awesome how far he has come in taking care of himself."

He does look fit and sounds much different from his old web board flaming days. Glad he has gotten involved, I thought he would be one of the last to join USAPA.

Too bad that is the way west pilots have to get their message out. I have to say I agree with them on the censorship thing. I don't see any "in my opinions" in Mike's messages. I guess it's a given his word is fact.
 
I thought he would be one of the last to join USAPA.

Honestly I think you'll see a lot more west join once we know what the remedy is. JMO though... I am furloughed and have decided to join if I am recalled. That doesn't mean i am gonna give a pass to the leadership! Including the ministry of communications!!!!
:lol: :blink:
 
Speaking of communication. Why is it that Usapa does not and will not support a free flowing avenue of communication - a web board or something similar?

Other than the regular union meetings, a couple of email addresses, and the occasional random contact in the terminal, there is no way to get the message across to the leadership. They don't even have pictures of any officers on the Usapa website. I wouldn't know my Union president if he walked up to me and shook my hand.

Why is Usapa apparently resistant to the free flow of information? Why to they insist upon controlling all communication? Why is this union being so secretive about many things.

These are honest questions. They deserve answers - from my union. I've asked. So far, no answers have been forthcoming.
 
Other than the regular union meetings, a couple of email addresses,

They don't even have pictures of any officers on the Usapa website. I wouldn't know my Union president if he walked up to me and shook my hand.

1) "other than the regular union meetings" and "email addresses"....Umm...exactly what are you expecting/demanding here? = A personal phone call every morning?...Perhaps to have a union official fluff your pillow, sing you a lullaby, and tuck you in each night?

2) Sigh...that's a truly great point = The annual swimsuit calendar just hasn't been finished yet, I guess... :rolleyes: I'm going to take a wild guess that your union president would introduce himself though.....

Seriously; Are you a member in good standing?..and; have you actually called and/or written anyone to make any suggestions about what you would like to see? If so = who and when? Vague whining is hardly likely to effect much in the way of change....
 
Speaking of communication. Why is it that Usapa does not and will not support a free flowing avenue of communication - a web board or something similar?

Other than the regular union meetings, a couple of email addresses, and the occasional random contact in the terminal, there is no way to get the message across to the leadership. They don't even have pictures of any officers on the Usapa website. I wouldn't know my Union president if he walked up to me and shook my hand.

Why is Usapa apparently resistant to the free flow of information? Why to they insist upon controlling all communication? Why is this union being so secretive about many things.

These are honest questions. They deserve answers - from my union. I've asked. So far, no answers have been forthcoming.
Rhetorical question right?

"control the message" That's what Stalin did. That's how Castro remained for so many decades. Hitler and Kim Jong Il too.

The difference between all of these monsters and USAPA leadership is the fact that they actually had some shred of success...as measured by their own stated goals. USAPA, in plain view, has failed at everything. Instead of regrouping and having some realistic, inclusive, rational discussion and thought as to how to move forward, The USAPA machine has decided to remove all the brakes, bolt on the biggest supercharger they can find, floor it and toss the steering wheel right out the window. Why not? Lee Seham knows what he's doing right? There couldn't be any other reason for his "expert legal advice"...i$ there?

The reality is, (as proven by a Jury of 9) USAPA never even considered actually representing West pilots. That was their last concern in the world which is why their actions were determined to be, discriminatory, arbitrary and in bad faith. IOW, a failure in their DUTY to represent. In fact, they are still either willfully ignoring, or just plain ignorant to exactly what their legal obligations are. This union is a train wreck in slow motion. They've gone too far, with too much tacit approval and funding from the East and now there is no way back. The only solution as far as I can see is to wad up the entire organization and flush it straight down the sewer where it belongs and start over.
 
The annual swimsuit calendar just hasn't been finished yet, I guess... :rolleyes:

Well, perhaps they should ask Captain Anger to pose on his Harley!

It still cracks me up that when we were on the ALPA web boards, east posters thought he was using a psuedonym screen name "T-bone Anger", and when he would get called on it he would go off on a rant, stating Name, Rank,Seriel number, and a description of his stance on God, Country,Political affiliation, and Biker Chicks.

Then I would think to myself, man am I glad this guy is on our side.
 
Rhetorical question right?

"control the message" That's what Stalin did. That's how Castro remained for so many decades. Hitler and Kim Jong Il too.

The difference between all of these monsters and USAPA leadership is the fact that they actually had some shred of success...as measured by their own stated goals. USAPA, in plain view, has failed at everything. Instead of regrouping and having some realistic, inclusive, rational discussion and thought as to how to move forward, The USAPA machine has decided to remove all the brakes, bolt on the biggest supercharger they can find, floor it and toss the steering wheel right out the window. Why not? Lee Seham knows what he's doing right? There couldn't be any other reason for his "expert legal advice"...i$ there?

The reality is, (as proven by a Jury of 9) USAPA never even considered actually representing West pilots. That was their last concern in the world which is why their actions were determined to be, discriminatory, arbitrary and in bad faith. IOW, a failure in their DUTY to represent. In fact, they are still either willfully ignoring, or just plain ignorant to exactly what their legal obligations are. This union is a train wreck in slow motion. They've gone too far, with too much tacit approval and funding from the East and now there is no way back. The only solution as far as I can see is to wad up the entire organization and flush it straight down the sewer where it belongs and start over.

You claim the sole purpose of USAPA is to abrogate the Nic award. Is Nic being used as the seniority list? By YOUR own definition then, USAPA is succesful, so far.. Not my viewpoint, I just like to point out how inconsistent and ridiculous the whole lot of you sound. Its just BLA BLA BLA over and over, whatever statement suits you at the time. Go ahead Metroyet, tell me how an organization whose sole purpose as the west claims is to sidestep Nic can be considered to have failed at everything? No Nic here.. I Know BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA. By the way BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA.
 
"control the message"

Based on what I have read on the boards I would opine that is what is happening. If the BPR can't tangibly see the views of pilots, via a vote, poll or comments, then it is easy to marginalize the individual negative comments that are received. However, I don't subscribe to the way you characterize the issue in your post.

The reality is, (as proven by a Jury of 9) USAPA never even considered actually representing West pilots.

I don't think that is what the jury actually decided. In my opinion what the jury decided was that there was ample evidence to prove that the formation, constitution and actions of USAPA were primarilly an attempt to make the Nicolau Award moot and in so doing failed in its duty of fair representation.
 
Then I would think to myself, man am I glad this guy is on our side.

Yeah, that I can understand. West-East politics aside; he strikes me as an OK guy and an actually "serious" pilot.
On the other hand...umm...your french accented Harry Potter derivative leaves just a wee bit to be desired, imho... :lol: I can only imagine what caricatures you have out west for some of ours.....

Don't mind me here, and no offense meant...sometimes, it's just good to step back and laugh at it all :lol:
 
You claim the sole purpose of USAPA is to abrogate the Nic award. Is Nic being used as the seniority list? By YOUR own definition then, USAPA is succesful, so far.. Not my viewpoint, I just like to point out how inconsistent and ridiculous the whole lot of you sound. Its just BLA BLA BLA over and over, whatever statement suits you at the time. Go ahead Metroyet, tell me how an organization whose sole purpose as the west claims is to sidestep Nic can be considered to have failed at everything? No Nic here.. I Know BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA. By the way BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA.

You did read the letter between Bradford and a lawyer, yes? You did read the letter sent by Bradford to a West pilot, yes?

Then I assume you understand yes in fact USAPA was born to circumvent the Nic. And one needs no introduction to your stalling. You were just found liable for failure of DFR in a federal court.

Have a good one!
 
1) "other than the regular union meetings" and "email addresses"....Umm...exactly what are you expecting/demanding here? = A personal phone call every morning?...Perhaps to have a union official fluff your pillow, sing you a lullaby, and tuck you in each night?

A forum on their web site where those who are critical of their policies can post.

Are you capable of answering a question without being condescending?
 
A forum on their web site where those who are critical of their policies can post.

Are you capable of answering a question without being condescending?
USAPA was designed as bottom up pilot represented organization. Anyone disagree with that statement?

The reality is a little different then the founders envisioned. If you have not read it yet. Go to the LAS domicile section on the usapa web site and read the account of the LAS domicile chairman going to the CLT meeting. This is a member in good standing and a member of the controlling body. We hear how it is only the west pilots that are hostile towards the east. Sure sounds like the east chairman was hostile to anyone with an opposing view point.

Could things be beginning to unraveled for the current leadership. When the CLT chairman hammers down his own pilots and tells them to “shut upâ€￾ or “leaveâ€￾ Does that sound like a bottom up pilot controlled union to anyone?

Once again usapa goes whining to the police over a disagreement. This time in their own back yard. I expect it in PHX but not in CLT.

Gentlemen I ask you. Is this the kind of union behavior that you envisioned when you voted for usapa? Dictatorial rule, no voice of dissent from anywhere, no means to have your voice heard. Set aside the seniority for a minute. Is this the way that you want your union to be run? Is this behavior going to get you anything? 190 guys! Do you see a contract in the near future with this current leadership?

Sure they talk a lot and say they support you. Does that pay any bills? Get you a better schedule? Tell me again why and where all of this support is coming from. It is time to figure out who is running this organization. The pilots or the dictators that are selfishly running this train off the tracks.
 
A forum on their web site where those who are critical of their policies can post.
You mean so that the union website would turn into this one? Where critics would drone on and on with borderline harrassment? That kind of site? Never happen.
You want a platform to be provided for you to act like you and your west friends do: and you already have one right here.
Go back to your AWAPPA site, or the AOL site, or just stay here. Then you guys can high-five and rant to each other all you want, nobody else really wants to hear it.
I'll visit again after Wake has delivered a remedy, in the meantime this site has become a complete waste of time between East and West.
 
You mean so that the union website would turn into this one? Where critics would drone on and on with borderline harrassment? That kind of site? Never happen.
You want a platform to be provided for you to act like you and your west friends do: and you already have one right here.
Go back to your AWAPPA site, or the AOL site, or just stay here. Then you guys can high-five and rant to each other all you want, nobody else really wants to hear it.
I'll visit again after Wake has delivered a remedy, in the meantime this site has become a complete waste of time between East and West.


You sound like a sore loser... This example below is exactly what we are talking about! Care to comment further after a quick read? I'm looking forward to your brainwashed drivel!

Fellow pilots,

May 21, 2009, is a day that I will remember for many years to come. It is the day that I became entirely convinced that the future of our careers at US Airways were in grave danger.

On May 20, 2009, Capt. Jeff Wagner and I flew to CLT, on our days off, with the purpose of attending the announced CLT Domicile meeting that was to be open to all USAPA members in good standing. Because of the extremely limited opportunity that I am provided to access the union’s legal counsel (even as a member of the union’s governing body), I felt that the opportunity to finally have my questions answered was worth the trip. Moreover, the opportunity to ask those questions in a public forum was even more encouraging, as USAPA is a union designed to be transparent and controlled directly by the line pilots.

On the morning of May 21, 2009, and after just 5 hours of sleep in the cheapest CLT motel that we could find, Jeff and I met to finalize the questions that we planned to ask Lee Seham later that day. We prepared 6 questions, all related to the trial. We were not so naïve as to expect straight answers to these simple questions from Mr. Seham, as we all know that this is impossible. Typically, Mr. Seham’s answers to simple questions that only require a 3-word response consist of a 10-minute circular dialogue. Therefore, the purpose of our visit was to publicly ask the sorts of questions that many pilots are afraid to ask, but for which the pilot group is entitled to answers. After all – this union does belong to the pilots! This was the proper forum in which to ask these questions, as the meeting was supposed to be videotaped and made available for all pilots to view at a later time.

We arrived at the CLT conference room just before the beginning of the meeting. While Jeff and I began to exchange cordial salutations with many of the other pilots present, there were a few surprised faces among us and a few comments to the effect of, “what are you doing here?” We are USAPA members, and it is a USAPA meeting, isn’t it?

USAPA had a video camera already prepared to record the event. However, just to make sure that we would have access to the footage in a timely matter and without edit of material that USAPA determined to be “non-factual,” we decided to bring our own camera to set beside theirs. Our idea was not well received. As soon as we mounted the tripod, we saw what could only be compared to throwing a piece of dead fish in a shark tank. This is a consistent theme in USAPA; when the communications cannot be unilaterally controlled by USAPA, they are simply not permitted. The following dialogue then took place between CLT Chairman Pat Day and me:

Capt. Day: Marcio!! That’s not gonna happen!!

Marcio: What?

Capt. Day: The video. You will not tape it; it is not going to be allowed.

Marcio: Yes I will; I am a member in good standing, I am part of the BPR. You are taping, I am taping.

Capt. Day: I don’t care, this is MY meeting, and you are not taping.

Marcio: Why not, Pat? What do you have to hide?

Capt. Day: Because I said so, it is MY meeting.

Marcio: No, Pat, it is not YOUR meeting; it is a union meeting, a meeting for all members in good standing.

After about two minutes of not-so-friendly arguments, including a threat to call the police to have me removed, Pat had the courage to present a resolution to prohibit us from recording the event. The majority of the pilots present voted in favor of the resolution. Pathetic.

Not five minutes later, two of Charlotte’s finest entered the conference room, armed and ready. I can only presume that being 6’ 5” and 260 lbs, I am perceived as a threat by a crowd of over 50 other pilots. It did not take long before the officers realized that they had better things to do and left the meeting.

Make no mistake, Capt. Day was in charge of HIS meeting. While I certainly understand and respect that a chairman is always required to maintain some sort of order in a meeting, I have never ever witnessed a union meeting being run with such a tone of arrogance and superiority.

Capt. Day’s rules for participation were as follows: each pilot may only ask one question, no follow up questions, no comments on the answers and no cross talking. During the first several minutes of the meeting, Capt. Day enforced his rules with terms such as “shut-up!”, “sit down!”, “quiet now!”, “leave!” I can assure you that his tone never deviated from “unfriendly.” These comments were directed by Capt. Day at not only myself, but to several of the other members present.

I am not going to waste your time with the substance of Seham’s briefing and Q and A, as it is the same nonsense that you are used to: “we are going to win,” “the Judge is hostile and biased,” “our team did a great job, even better than our opponents,” “the judge didn’t follow the law,” etc. Mr. Seham’s message continues to be that, despite the fact that USAPA was just found liable in a major DFR lawsuit, the finding has absolutely nothing to do with having a bad case or bad legal representation.

As a result of this briefing, there is one suspicion of mine that is now certain: Mr. Lee Seham is the best thing that could have happened to the West pilots during this trial and is our best chance of succeeding in an appeal. Thank you, Mr. Seham!

The length of Mr. Seham’s presentation was approximately one billable hour. During the break that followed the presentation, USAPA’s official cameraman told us that he was out of tape. “I was told that this was an one hour session, I only have one tape.” I approached “General” Pat Day and offered our camera to tape the Q and A, even telling him that he could keep the camera and immediately download the meeting onto his computer so that I could not have the raw footage. All of the other members present were in favor of accepting my offer; after all, Mr. Seham was not there on vacation. Mr. Seham’s presence was costing all of us billable hours. Capt. Day’s answer: NO!

So, thanks to “General” Pat Day’s arrogance and ego, less than 1% of the US Airways pilots will be able to benefit from all of the information presented at the meeting and are consequently denied the opportunity to make informed decisions about one of the most important issues of their careers. In my opinion, this is “criminal.” In my opinion, Capt. Day and many of his supporters are opposed to any solution that is offered by a West pilot.

I was the fourth in line to ask Mr. Seham a question. As a result of the exchange at the beginning of the meeting, I had prepared a very short statement for our fellow pilots:

“My name is Marcio Lucchese; I am the LAS USAPA chairman. I came here in peace. I did not come to battle you, or to offend you. My only goal is to try to help us unify for a better day.”

Before I had a chance to finish the 3rd word in my statement, Capt. Day began violently pounding his mallet on the table. Capt. Day shouted, “this is MY meeting, you can NOT make a statement. If you have a question, ask, otherwise leave. This is MY meeting.”

I responded to his outburst with:

I would like you to comment on the following statement:

This was a DFR trial, this was a trial that USAPA was found guilty of not fairly representing the West pilots.

This was not a trial to validate or question the fairness of the Nicolau. This was not a trial against Mr. Nicolau or ALPA. The amount of evidence that you claim was not permitted into court was due to this fact. Again, this was a DFR trial, not a seniority trial. You were trying to present murder evidence to a racketeering trial. That’s why the judge did not permit your evidence. And from what I can see, this continues to be your approach for the appeal of this DFR trial. You continue to state that “Date of Hire has been the norm for unions and upheld by the Supreme Court,” but you fail to address the point that USAPA was created to cheat a certain group of pilots out of an arbitrator’s award. Your comments, please.


Mr. Seham’s answer was essentially 15 billable minutes of the same rhetoric, equating Judge Wake to the “Soup Nazi.” The only part of his answer that was actually interesting was a brief and subtle admission that I was right. Mr. Seham did finally admit that I was right and that this was not a seniority trial. He admitted that was a problem for him to defend. Nonetheless, that admission was followed by five more billable minutes explaining that he was not able to present the evidence and how Nicolau was bad.

Then it was Jeff’s turn to ask this question:


Lee , I would like to read this to you. This is a press release from the Court of the Ninth Circle.

It says:

Mr. Wake, 55, had been in private practice, specializing in commercial, administrative and constitutional litigation, appellate practice and Indian law. He served as a judge pro tempore on the Arizona Court of Appeals in 1985, 1992 and 1996-98, and is co-author of the Arizona Appellate Handbook.

Mr. Wake earned his undergraduate degree from Arizona State University, graduating with distinction in 1971. He received his J.D. from Harvard Law School, graduating cum laude in 1974. While at Harvard, he was a member of the Civil Liberties Law Review.

Mr. Wake is a fellow of the American Academy of Appellate Lawyers and former member of the State Bar of Arizona’s Committee on Civil Practice and Procedure.

I have a quote here from the BOS domicile: They will be looking at the judge’s extraordinary behavior during the trial. And they will be looking at the one thing that was ignored: the law! And one from the USAPA president: USAPA, quite literally, fought this battle with both hands tied behind its back.

Lee, a judge with his credentials and his experience. Why did he pick on you, why did he pick on this group of honest, law obeying pilots?

By the third word, Emperor Day began to punish the table again with his mallet. In his abusive tone, he interrupted the question with, “I don’t want to listen to Judge’s Wake résumé or your statements. If you have a question, ask. Otherwise, sit down.”

Jeff did manage to continue to ask part of this question, most importantly the last sentence.

Mr. Seham paused for 20 seconds, and then answered (with his head down), “I don’t know.” After another pause, Mr. Seham reverted to repeating his same endless justifications.

When it was my turn again, I asked:

Mr. Chairman, to ask my question, I have to read a quote from Judge Wake. It is part of my question, and I will read it so my question can make sense.

“Let me -- you can help me by speaking to this concern. I have listened to this throughout the trial. The notion that representatives make agreements that are not binding on their principals is contrary to all notions of law. So when you say it's the representatives but it doesn't affect the interest of the principals, that is not only contrary to fundamental notions of law, it appears to be contrary to basic good faith as well.”

So Lee, if this pilot group goes back to ALPA, does it mean that we don’t have to pay you what we owe you?

Mr. Seham’s answer: “NO!”

After a long pause, Capt. Day jumped in and asked him to elaborate. Mr. Seham did elaborate with 10 additional billable minutes of the same stuff over and over again.

There were a couple more questions and answers, but I think you all get the gist of it. The phrase “This is MY meeting” was used at least a dozen times. Perhaps you can understand how I reached the conclusion that I stated at the beginning of this update:

“May 21, 2009, is a day that I will remember for many years to come. It is the day that I became entirely convinced that the future of our careers at US Airways were in grave danger.”

During the past several weeks as your representative, I have had the opportunity to work with a number of pilots out East. I believe that many of these pilots are interested in working with us on issues for which we have mutual interest. The problem is that (in my opinion) a number of USAPA leaders share the same radical anti-West views. Also, Mr. Seham has the ability to influence the leadership, and consequently the line pilot. Yet few question him (mostly because they are denied the opportunity to), and he is presented by the USAPA leadership as somebody who is always right and makes no mistakes. I’m bewildered that nobody has attempted to reconcile his continued losses in the court system with his reputation of never being wrong.

It is very clear that many of our purported leaders don’t want anything to do with us. They have absolutely no intention of compromise or to improve the life of the “American Western” pilots. It is all or nothing, and they are much happier with nothing than something.

During the meeting, we had the chance to hear from two EMB First Officers, including how miserable their lives are living close to poverty levels, sleeping in crew rooms for days, etc. One of the pilots almost dropped some tears when pleading to their representatives for improvements. General Day was very moved (sarcasm). Sitting on top of his 757 majesty, with his $30,000.00 gold Rolex, set of Mont Blancs and his custom-made shirt, he assured that it is going to change. What he forgot to tell those two pilots was that things are only going to change so long as that change does not come at his expense or go against what he “believes.”

If you are an EMB pilot, next time you see Pat, ask him if it is possible to have the $35 mil that is coming their way to be allocated to help our EMB pilots get a place to sleep or to put food on the table. This question was actually asked of Pat, and his answer was: “the A330 guys will not like that.”

Finally, I want to warn you that some of the current leaders of USAPA have only one goal, DOH. I believe that they are so egocentric and inflexible that if they do not achieve their goal, the careers and the jobs of 35,000 people may be in danger. They have the microphone, and the microphone will not filter what goes through it. Capt. Day is a perfect example. The inflexibility expressed during the meeting is always present. Just a few days ago, during a BPR conference call, I wanted to discuss the topic of cross-domicile open time pick up, something that we in the West value. However, without even letting me say more than a few words, Capt. Day screamed from the top of his lungs: “Absolutely not.” But as I said, he is only an example. If that is the will of the CLT-based pilots, then I assume that we will continue to drive towards the cliff.

Fortunately, many other members of the BPR do not see the world the same way that Capt. Day does. Many of them have been around unions long enough to understand that nothing can be accomplished without unity, and unity is often only achievable through compromise positions. There ARE many other issues facing this pilot group other than seniority, and that is something that other BPR members do understand.

Sincerely,

Marcio

On a last note, I would like to say that, besides Pat Day, the other members of the CLT domicile treated me with respect and professionalism. Since this airline has other issues other than seniority, I am pleased to report that PHL reps and I have been working TOGETHER on other issues that I am sure will improve the quality of life of all our pilots.
 
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