We are SCREWED

twaokc

Senior
Aug 19, 2002
336
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OKC
Bags,
You seem to really have a problem. Let me tell you from experience, go to BK, lose your beni's and most of your pay and see how you like it. The TWA deal did not cause this. 911 had a bigger hand in it along with Bush's policies. Bring back Bill and do away with 911 and the TWA deal would be the best thing that ever happened to AA and you. You need to get over the TWA deal, it is a done deal and all your whining is not going to change it. What you need to do is get the TWU to get with AA and change some of those outdated work rules. Work rules like TWA had that bought it to its knees. I know. I was there. What would it hurt for you to work the ticket counter, then run a last minute bag to the aircraft so that you do not have a pissed off customer at the other end when his bag does not make it. All airline employees better wake up and smell the roses. It would not hurt for a gate agent, f/a, Capt. or F/O, to help clean an aircraft before departure. I remember doing it at Ozark, and everything went fine. It is now either a time to change these old work rules, and quit saying it is not my job. Everyone needs to kick in and get the aircraft out on time with as small of a ground crew as possible. It is coming to it, you may not like it, but it will happen. Funny how history has a way of repeating itself. Now, everyone needs to work together and help AA start making a profit, so that we do not go the way of UAL or USAir or TWA or EAL or PA AM. I think you know what I mean.
Try to have a good nights sleep with your 11 years of service to AA. I know alot of people that have 3 to 4 times that much and are willing to do what it takes to make AA survive without BANKRUPTCY. It is you youngsters that do not understand. You have had it handed to you on a silver platter. Now is the time to wakeup before it is too late.....
 
B

bagsmasher

Guest
Management is now telling us that the high revenue customer is not coming back, and we have to do everything we can to bring our costs in line with Southwest. This after years of ignoring WN, and not even considering them as a major carrier. Suddenly it''s all we hear. There are several reasons why we could never bring our costs down to WN''s.
One thing is we could never fly just one type of aircraft. Another is that it is much cheaper to fly a passenger from point A to point B with just one segment. AA has built these huge hubs, and will never give them up.
But the biggest reason AA will never bring their cost in line with WN''s is culture. WN has a cooperative workforce that will work together to make a profit. At AA, our workgroups hate each other, and are bitter because of this TWA integration.
Personally the wound inflicted by Carty is very fresh, and may never heal. Carty chose to put this deal ahead of the loyalty to his employees, and AA will pay for it for a long time to come. I don''t understand it, but I heard a TWA AMT from MCIE talk about how Carty screwed them. This man got 100% Company seniority, 100% Occupational seniority, and a $10 an hour raise, and somehow he got screwed.
That is not the point that I am trying to make though. The point I am trying to make is that we have people on both sides that are bitter and uncooperative, and will never agree to the concessions and work rule changes AA needs now to remain a competitive carrier. U and UAL are getting concessions now that they are in BK, and for some reason carty thinks we can get them without going to BK court. I''ll bet we can''t. It''s sad to say, but I will never vote yes for any type of concession, or any TWU contract that gives protection to TWAer''s. Not after the screwing we took on this integration. We may have our ups and downs, but I believe we are doomed to suffer the same fate as UAL.
 

HI-LOCK

Member
Aug 30, 2002
61
0
I agree that we cannot operate like WN aka SWA.AA could become alot more efficient by operating only 3 fleet types of aircraft,the Boeing 737-757-777. The other routes could be covered by AE RJ's.I realize this business plan would cause layoffs at AA and hiring at AE but AA management is either lying to us or not willing to perform major surgery on the airline.They have done too little correction in the course too late.By doing major downsizing the AA management is admittting that buying TWA was a MAJOR MISTAKE.They will never do that!The main issue is ticket prices which are excessively low.The airlines could raise each ticket price by 10% and not lose any passengers.We do not need wage concessions to save the airline but streamlining the fleet and reducing the number of non-productive management positions would go a long way towards saving the airline.AA has too much duplication in the system.We have empty Dock positions in the Tulsa hangars and we are operating 3 maintenance bases.I can cite you numerous examples of what not to do at AA to have a successful business.We AA employees at the Tulsa Maintenance Base see a lot of things that Line Station employess never see and the reverse is true.The former TWA employees were already working for a longtime failing airline and have not seen the old,more efficient AA that we have seen at TUL.Example would be 1 manager per hangar as it was in the early 1990's instead of 1 manager per dock position now.The TUL maintenance base was much more efficient before the Business Units model came along.Whoever dreamed up this created major division in Tulsa instead of unity and the teamwork concept.Example is needing a part for an MD 80 in hangar 1 but the only one on base is in the hangar 4 load center.The Dock managers in hangar 4 will tell you that you cannot have the part because it comes out of their budget.This has happened to me numerous times and it kills the motavation to get the job done.Tulsa would once again become a more efficient Maintenance operation if the stupid business units would go away and we became 1 maintenance base again!This forum does not have enough space to provide all the examples that I seen thru the recent years.
 

AgMedallion

Advanced
Aug 31, 2002
220
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[blockquote]
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On 12/21/2002 12:41:08 AM twaokc wrote:
The TWA deal did not cause this. 911 had a bigger hand in it along with Bush's policies. Bring back Bill and do away with 911 and the TWA deal would be the best thing that ever happened to AA
[/blockquote]

"Bill" is one of the reasons 911 happened! Instead of taking UBL when he was offered to us by Sudan, "Bill" said no thanks...perhaps he was more concerned at the time with being, err....."serviced" in the Oval Office. Btw, the current recession began while "Bill" was President. But hey, don't let the facts interfere with your views. If you want to think that taxpayers getting $300 tax refunds is the source of all evil, then so be it.
 
Aug 20, 2002
664
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[blockquote]
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On 12/21/2002 10:13:42 AM Tango-Bravo wrote:


In closing, yes, AA will arrive at the same fate as UA if you choose to go on with the same dysfunctional business model while blaming all of your woes on labor. Give Carty credit where credit is due: unlike US and UA, he recognizes that the industry's woes go far beyond labor costs--and at least Carty has shown some leadership in identifying areas where the model is broken and has begun to initiate meaningful reform, most notably in the areas of scheduling at hubs and pricing.


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[/blockquote]


Hopefully it is not too little too late.
 

Tango-Bravo

Advanced
Aug 29, 2002
106
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www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/20/2002 11:22:57 PM bagsmasher wrote:

Management is now telling us that the high revenue customer is not coming back, and we have to do everything we can to bring our costs in line with Southwest. This after years of ignoring WN, and not even considering them as a major carrier. Suddenly it's all we hear. There are several reasons why we could never bring our costs down to WN's.

...AA has built these huge hubs, and will never give them up.

But the biggest reason AA will never bring their cost in line with WN's is culture. WN has a cooperative workforce that will work together to make a profit.

...We may have our ups and downs, but I believe we are doomed to suffer the same fate as UAL.
----------------
[/blockquote]

My musings on these valid points of bagsmasher:

Remarkable how the grossly overcompensated stuffed shirts at one of the Big Six cartel airlines are beginning to "get it" some 20 years after the "secrets" of WN's consistent success through good times and bad has been out on the table for all to see. (Their counterparts at the other five cartel airlines, especially the two in BK, show no signs of having even begun to get the message).

AA, unlike any of their cartel counterparts, has at least begun to make some sense out of their hub nonsense. Carty was 110% correct in a recent statement he made concerning the roots of the cartel's malaise: "we gave customers what they wanted but at a cost they were not willing to pay." Seems like the context of this insight was optimally timed connections at hubs and the inherent inefficiencies of aircraft and labor utilization.

There's much more to giving customers what they want at a cost they refuse to pay. Perhaps the leading example is the monstrosity that the "full-service" majors have allowed their "elite" programs to become. Instead of truly valuable customers, the cartel airlines have turned countless numbers of their elites into low-yield, high maintenance, high cost, non-profit freeloaders who expect the world in service because they happen to fly more often on loss-leader and pack-the-plane web giveaway fares than other customers. Not that I in any way blame elite freeloaders--they're only accepting what the "full-service" airlines are stupid enough to give them in trying to buy their non-profit patronage.

Bottom line: before the "full-service" airlines can expect meaningful recovery from their potentially fatal malaise, they will need to get back to another key basic. Offer customers what they are willing to pay for; nothing less and nothing more. And regardless of what they are willing to pay for (hey, the airline offered whatever fare each and every pax paid), like WN (and unlike the cartel airlines) treat every pax like a valued customer instead of practicing a defacto caste system.

As for everyone working together at WN to make their airline successful, it all comes down to leadership. At the cartel airlines, you have a leadership crisis--you have no leadership. Another key night-and-day difference between WN and the cartel is trust between labor and leadership (aka management) that happened the old-fashioned way: it was earned--and kept. The management (not leaders) at the cartel airlines have put expediency ahead of integrity too many times to keep the trust of their employees--both are reaping what they sowed; WN remains profitable in the toughest of times while the cartel continues toward the brink of collapse, a process that began long before 9/11.

In closing, yes, AA will arrive at the same fate as UA if you choose to go on with the same dysfunctional business model while blaming all of your woes on labor. Give Carty credit where credit is due: unlike US and UA, he recognizes that the industry's woes go far beyond labor costs--and at least Carty has shown some leadership in identifying areas where the model is broken and has begun to initiate meaningful reform, most notably in the areas of scheduling at hubs and pricing.
 

Hopeful

Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
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Don't forget, these same terrorists tried bringing down the Twin Towers in 1993. Had Clinton reacted to that the way Bush had to do on 9/11, we might have been prepared to prevent it. He totally blew off the attempt to bring them down. you know ol Slick Willy, " Make Love, not War!
 

Hopeful

Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
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I don't think anyone doubts Carty is trying everything to avert the BK court. But he really needs to look deeply into ALL facets of the company. In M&E, the supervisor to employee ratio is where it is pre-Crandall years. AA is grounding aircraft, cutting capacity, laying off employees in both management and non-management ranks, but continues to hire supervisors and managers at rates not seen in years.
 

Buck

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Contributor
Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 12/21/2002 11:01:32 AM Hopeful wrote:

I don't think anyone doubts Carty is trying everything to avert the BK court. But he really needs to look deeply into ALL facets of the company. In M&E, the supervisor to employee ratio is where it is pre-Crandall years. AA is grounding aircraft, cutting capacity, laying off employees in both management and non-management ranks, but continues to hire supervisors and managers at rates not seen in years.
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[/blockquote]

Until Carty digs into M&E at TUL, there is going to be waste. An example of how things are done.

The MD80 Lower Sidewall flourescent lamp system is deactivated. But it is required to reinstall the lamps for flight. Annual savings is estimated to be over $280,000. The engineering team, says that its hands are tied. The lamp is part of the aircraft. However, they found time to issue an ECO to remove the ovens. Also the telephone system is deactivated. Maintenance must reinstall the antennas and has yet to pull the wire harness from the E&E compartment. It is all about weight.
 

mwa

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
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Hear the same criticism throughout the company - maybe they are preparing for a strike so that management can join the ranks of those who cross and start from scratch.
 

Hopeful

Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
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There will be no strikes whatsoever. Carty is tight with Dubya! Only way to strike is to go to the BK court and have the company abbrogate the union contracts. Only then can the union strike
 

luv2fly

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Aug 21, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
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On 12/21/2002 4:03:47 PM WingNaPrayer wrote:

I predict Chapter 11 for AMR Corp by June, 2003 - August 2003 at the very latest. I think we'll see Delta and NorthWest doing back to back bankruptcy filings by late spring.

I look for the wallstreet darling, JetBlue to start seeing some serious financial problems by early next summer. When the big guys start to fall, costs start to get passed on to everyone else....

It's going to get very ugly, [EM]very ugly [/EM]indeed.
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[/blockquote]
Clueless. Totally clueless.
 

WingNaPrayer

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Aug 20, 2002
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I predict Chapter 11 for AMR Corp by June, 2003 - August 2003 at the very latest. I think we'll see Delta and NorthWest doing back to back bankruptcy filings by late spring.[BR][BR]I look for the wallstreet darling, JetBlue to start seeing some serious financial problems by early next summer. When the big guys start to fall, costs start to get passed on to everyone else....[BR][BR]It's going to get very ugly, [EM]very ugly [/EM]indeed.
 

AAmech

Veteran
Aug 22, 2002
766
1
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/21/2002 10:13:42 AM Tango-Bravo wrote:


My musings on these valid points of bagsmasher:

Remarkable how the grossly overcompensated stuffed shirts at one of the Big Six cartel airlines are beginning to "get it" some 20 years after the "secrets" of WN's consistent success through good times and bad has been out on the table for all to see. (Their counterparts at the other five cartel airlines, especially the two in BK, show no signs of having even begun to get the message).

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[/blockquote]

One of the keys to WN's success is the hardest to copy. Its the marketing stupid!!! WN has successfully marketed itself as "The Low Fare Airline". So much so that many people don't even shop for fares. They just go buy from WN even though there are lower fares all over the place. And for added benifit the liberal use words like Love, Luv, and
Fun makes people smile as they get to the airport 2 hours early to get the right colored bording pass! Simply put they are damn geniuses at WN! Now not to knock their operations that are VERY efficent, but many have copied them and fallen flat on their faces. But nobody has been able to generate that kind of image.
 

KCFlyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/21/2002 6:33:38 PM AAmech wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]One of the keys to WN's success is the hardest to copy. Its the marketing stupid!!! WN has successfully marketed itself as "The Low Fare Airline". So much so that many people don't even shop for fares. They just go buy from WN even though there are lower fares all over the place. And for added benifit the liberal use words like Love, Luv, and [BR]Fun makes people smile as they get to the airport 2 hours early to get the right colored bording pass! Simply put they are damn geniuses at WN! Now not to knock their operations that are VERY efficent, but many have copied them and fallen flat on their faces. But nobody has been able to generate that kind of image. [/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]----------------[BR][BR]AAmech - You really don't want people to shop fares do you? A lot of airlines really DO offer a lower advance purchase fare than Southwest - but I dare say the those who do are not making any money on that seat. I'm sending my wife to San Diego on the 27th to see a bowl game. Tickets were less than 14 days in advance - the way out was fully refundable (full fare), the return was an advance purchase fare - the total ticket price was $500. Not bad at all for a "last minute" round trip (without a Saturday stay either). [BR][BR]But some might be choosing Southwest, even if the fare is higher, because they know that if their plans change, they won't be "hundred dollared" all over the place to make a change. I know that this is one big reason I'll fly SWA over the others. [BR][BR][/BLOCKQUOTE]