What is the IAM/AFA waiting for...?

[fudgerunyard]

The unions -- the Association of Flight Attendants and International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers -- themselves have to file for an election with the mediation board, but they're choosing not to right now.

They're both facing the distinct possibility of losing elections when combined with nonunion Delta counterparts, which makes waiting to file a better deal for the unions. They stand to lose tens of millions each year in dues collected from members. According to its most recent filing with the Department of Labor, the machinists union took in $10.5 million in dues from roughly 9,500 Northwest workers in 2007. The flight attendants union charges each active member -- around 7,000 -- $43 per month.

So my question is simply this, what are they waiting for? The more ramp cities that come under the non-union Delta umbrella, the smaller the chances of the IAM winning become. What could they possibly hope to achieve in delaying a vote?

 

[bagboy]

[quote name='fudgerunyard' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:29 PM' post='681448



The more ramp cities that come under the non-union Delta umbrella, the smaller the chances of the IAM winning become. [/quote]

You are assuming that those that have been displaced by Delta once or twice in the past from these once outsourced stations will vote against the union. If I were tossed out on my ass, only to return to a wink and a promise that we wouldn't do it again, the choice wouldn't be too hard which way I'd vote. Time is on the unions side but you know that already.

 

[fudgerunyard]

And your assuming that these employees will all be Delta re-hires who were once fired/layed off. My guess is that the vast majority of these new cities will be staffed by either brand new employees with no reason for ill-will towards Delta or current pre-merger Delta employees who have received a transfer to a new city. The bulk of these new cities are current NWA cities, Delta either never had ramp there to begin with, or it was many many years ago.

And, please correct me if i'm wrong, but these new cities that are now open on e-bid with current NWA Fleet employees, the new positions will be staffed by non-union DAL employees.

Take PDX for example, the way i understood it, NWA currently has ramp there, DAL doesn't. But now that DAL has re-opened this city to DAL ramp, the new employees who fill these open positions will be non-union DAL employees, which in turns dillutes IAM numbers that much further.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

Um, considering Delta laid off Agents who had any where from 15-30+ years of seniority, I would think they would be coming back before new hires. Then again since Delta is non-union, they can just scab it up like they did with the flight attendants, hiring off the street when the others on furlough didn't want to come back and have to learn a second language. They wanted the job they were hired for, a English speaking F/A. Any company with a contract would not of been able to do this and those F/A's would of been labeled a SCAB, but not at non-union Delta. The unions will set the voting dates when they need to.

Until then thankfully the NWA people are still protected under contracts and hopefully don't fall for the, HEY Y'ALL! We're Delta! We promise not to rape you of your retirement, pay, and work rules, we already did that years ago! So Y'all better get on over here so we can take care of Y'all and wrap you up in arms of a non-union Delta. If Y'all vote down the union we promise not to out source any flying! Signed, Your new CEO (The man who tried to out source all Int'l flying at NWA only a few years ago)

 

[Dignity]

laid off Agents who had any where from 15-30+ years of seniority, I would think they would be coming back before new hires.

if that is the case I hope anyone on furlough is offered an opportunity to return to their former jobs..

like they did with the flight attendants, hiring off the street when the others on furlough didn't want to come back and have to learn a second language. They wanted the job they were hired for, a English speaking F/A.

while I understand there may be a need for languages at times, it often makes me wonder how we managed all these years sometimes without for a particular destination? (we did get the job done) ..many Flight Attendants do speak languages, some are not even recognized because they are not a part of the the LOD programs..some Flight Attendants have spoken languages the whole time, but because they are not a particular language it does not seem to count..

we have always managed in the past.. we had interpreters aboard complimenting the US Flight Attendant crews over the Atlantic at one time..(at NW there was once an Interpreter base at London for European destinations) and still have Pacific Interpreters that will remain going forward.

so I personally do not quite buy this idea that unless you speak a recognized language you get furloughed before an LOD if that actually has happened (I really dont know if that is true or not)..
working International in the past I have noticed you actually learn phrases and able to communicate with passengers by just flying the route and laying over in the city overseas being exposed to their language..(even if you are not fluent)

but..

sometimes I think it might be a good idea and at least explore looking into maybe a community college(especially if the cost is reimbursed) or other avenue and learn another language just to have it under the belt (so to speak)..

the bottom line..there is a US Flag on the side of the plane...that means English speakers (US citizens and those who have a legal right to work in the US)..go first...for everything...(using strict system seniority order including contractual qualifications currently established for bidding purposes.) on flights to and from the US.

Interport Pacific Flight Attendants are not outsourced, on those flights we work together as a team and bid together accordingly after Purser.

The unions will set the voting dates when they need to.

the union needs to establish an election now..and I will tell you why I feel that way..
this needs to happen prior to training so it is finally determined how the group feels and if it is for representation, the union needs to be negotiating a contract the rest of the year into 2010 so there is a Tentative Agreement at the time an SOC is issued..so both groups can vote on and then shortly begin to fly together instead of remaining separate... it has nothing to do with not wanting a contract like some people..online.. are suggesting...

if representation is not established at the time of an election, we just keep on moving forward..

we promise not to out source any flying! Signed, Your new CEO (The man who tried to out source all Int'l flying at NWA only a few years ago)

there are no promises one way or another , I guess what people must consider.. do they trust the right thing will be done going forward.. clearly what was attempted in the past was wrong, people should learn from past mistakes and intent of trying and attempting unfairly taking advantage of loyal employees is never a way to project a sense of fairness. I hope the right thing will be done going forward..playing games with peoples lives, to save a buck by outsourcing is simply shameful, and it tells me the people at the top making the decisions never should have been there in the first place...(they will ruin another good name if they try it again..)

There are so many good people that just dont deserve to be treated as we have in the past...
personally want to be involved in more positive work enviroment...going forward..

Its time everyone to start doing the right thing..(the union, too can help by doing their part as well..by addressing issues instead of not)... IMO.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

I was a part of Delta while all of that was going on, so I do know for fact they would call up those on furlough and offer them to come back, but you had to learn a second language. A lot of people have no desire to and just wanted back the job they were hired to do, and since we had no contract it allowed them to skip around the furloughs and hire off the street. The chance of that happening at any major airline except Delta is not possible. We always managed just fine if we did or didn't have a speaker. I was all for interpreters, rather then speakers. Only one is needed per flight and it would of saved the company alot of money and added back working F/A positions, in my eyes further increasing staffing and allowing the interpreter to do what they were paid to do. At that point the only thing Delta was worried about was "Bringing sexy back", not bringing back the employees who had been furloughed on and off 3-4 times.

As for the agents yes, Delta does have people with that much seniority around the system as agents on furlough. I will never forget when they cut one of the Canadian cities, most of the agents had 20,25 and 30+ years, I'd like to see Delta bring them back and not hire at starting pay off the street. I'd be surprised if they did. People at NWA just have no idea what not having a contract allows them to do. If they need to save money they will do whatever they need to do to save it and they don't care who they cut, step-on, or layoff.

 

[Dignity]

I do know for fact they would call up those on furlough and offer them to come back, but you had to learn a second language.

skip around the furloughs and hire off the street.

that seems very wrong to me...someone is furloughed and going through financial difficulties due to a job loss and only to be recalled.. if they are willing to learn a second language..for the same job they were hired.. even though it was not a requirement in the first place.

did anyone bother to think these same people are not financially able to pay tuition because they lost their job in the first place?

I only hope if that was the case.. they were at least willing to cover fully any cost associated enrolling into a language learning program upfront..its one thing to set aside some monies while employed to go into a language learning program, but its quite another..
having to pay for such a program as a condition of recall, when someone may be struggling paying their bills, while unemployed due to a furlough..

these ideas seem very out of ordinary to me..by not adhering to strict system seniority..(as it should always be outlined).

I try very hard to be understanding but some of these ideas(bypassing on the seniority list and skipping around who stays and who may be furloughed) are just not the norm in this industry.

I am very disappointed being made aware that has happened...(that needs to change)

 

[2BlacknBlue]

HottootrotNyc

I had to rephrase one sentence to make it 100% accurate:


"If they need to save money they will do whatever they need want to do to save it and they don't care who they cut, step-on, or layoff."


2BnB

 

[bagboy]

And your assuming that these employees will all be Delta re-hires who were once fired/layed off. My guess is that the vast majority of these new cities will be staffed by either brand new employees with no reason for ill-will towards Delta or current pre-merger Delta employees who have received a transfer to a new city. The bulk of these new cities are current NWA cities, Delta either never had ramp there to begin with, or it was many many years ago.

And, please correct me if i'm wrong, but these new cities that are now open on e-bid with current NWA Fleet employees, the new positions will be staffed by non-union DAL employees.

Take PDX for example, the way i understood it, NWA currently has ramp there, DAL doesn't. But now that DAL has re-opened this city to DAL ramp, the new employees who fill these open positions will be non-union DAL employees, which in turns dillutes IAM numbers that much further.

I stand by my opinion that those with half a head on their shoulders, and can remember the recent history of Delta management styles, will be voting IAM. As for PDX, it is a city that is mainline, with no thanks to DL, but to the IAM holding it during the bankruptcy. When bidding into one of these stations please stop by to see your NWA counterparts and be sure to thank them. If DL is trying to dilute the numbers in the out stations, I would question the tactic. Doesn't seem like time or money well spent.

 

[fudgerunyard]

I stand by my opinion that those with half a head on their shoulders, and can remember the recent history of Delta management styles, will be voting IAM. As for PDX, it is a city that is mainline, with no thanks to DL, but to the IAM holding it during the bankruptcy. When bidding into one of these stations please stop by to see your NWA counterparts and be sure to thank them. If DL is trying to dilute the numbers in the out stations, I would question the tactic. Doesn't seem like time or money well spent.

Your missing my point completely....the people who fill these positions in these new Delta ramp cities (current NWA ramp locations) will be non-union. The longer the IAM waits to petition for a vote simply means the more Delta 120 employees versus NWA Fleet Employees.

Why are frontline NW employees not allowed to put in for the stations that need additional staffing.

Response: These positions are currently only available to pre-merger Delta people because they will be supporting the pre-merger Delta operation in those stations. One reason is that we made a commitment to them and many of them have recall rights now that we are re-opening the station. We are following through on that commitment. In addition, until we can align the pay, work rules and seniority systems for the pre-merger Delta and Northwest workgroups, we would have no basis for determining how to assign positions, shifts, overtime, vacation, etc., or for determining under what rules the work would be performed. And finally, we are overstaffed in some pre-merger Delta stations and are doing this both to help balance resources and to do everything possible to avoid involuntary furloughs.

The IAM doesn't stand a chance and they know it, hence, they'll drag this on as long as possible and collect as much union dues as time will allow. I also fail to see how a current DAL employee who isn't pro-union doesn't have half a head on their shoulders. So, either your gung-ho IAM or your a moron???

 

[Dignity]

many of them have recall rights now that we are re-opening the station

are those being recalled going into stations that are currently mainline NW and eventually will be integrated together? if so, wouldn't these recalls not happen at all.. unless it was currently staffed by pre-merger NW employees by having ability to keep those stations open (pre-merger)...and therefore would have fallen under RHS?

 

[bagboy]

Your missing my point completely....the people who fill these positions in these new Delta ramp cities (current NWA ramp locations) will be non-union. The longer the IAM waits to petition for a vote simply means the more Delta 120 employees versus NWA Fleet Employees.

Why are frontline NW employees not allowed to put in for the stations that need additional staffing.

Response: These positions are currently only available to pre-merger Delta people because they will be supporting the pre-merger Delta operation in those stations. One reason is that we made a commitment to them and many of them have recall rights now that we are re-opening the station. We are following through on that commitment. In addition, until we can align the pay, work rules and seniority systems for the pre-merger Delta and Northwest workgroups, we would have no basis for determining how to assign positions, shifts, overtime, vacation, etc., or for determining under what rules the work would be performed. And finally, we are overstaffed in some pre-merger Delta stations and are doing this both to help balance resources and to do everything possible to avoid involuntary furloughs.

The IAM doesn't stand a chance and they know it, hence, they'll drag this on as long as possible and collect as much union dues as time will allow. I also fail to see how a current DAL employee who isn't pro-union doesn't have half a head on their shoulders. So, either your gung-ho IAM or your a moron???

I don't feel the same way and now I'm a moron. I can't wait to meet my new brothers from DAL. Way a bunch of dandies.

What is your point then? If the IAM is going to fail then things will continue to be status quo for you at DAL.

You forgot to say thank you to me for reopening some of the bidding locations. As a union member of the IAM we did that for you too.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

that seems very wrong to me...someone is furloughed and going through financial difficulties due to a job loss and only to be recalled.. if they are willing to learn a second language..for the same job they were hired.. even though it was not a requirement in the first place.

did anyone bother to think these same people are not financially able to pay tuition because they lost their job in the first place?

I only hope if that was the case.. they were at least willing to cover fully any cost associated enrolling into a language learning program upfront..its one thing to set aside some monies while employed to go into a language learning program, but its quite another..
having to pay for such a program as a condition of recall, when someone may be struggling paying their bills, while unemployed due to a furlough..

these ideas seem very out of ordinary to me..by not adhering to strict system seniority..(as it should always be outlined).

I try very hard to be understanding but some of these ideas(bypassing on the seniority list and skipping around who stays and who may be furloughed) are just not the norm in this industry.

I am very disappointed being made aware that has happened...(that needs to change)

I don't remember the exact terms of the agreement but I believe they would pay, although this is not the point. The point is we were supposed to be a seniority based airline and these people were hired as people who only spoke English. They should not be of been required to learn a language to be recalled, it's complete and total bull. If you were good enough then to be hired, you should of been recalled with the option to learn a second language, if you didn't want to learn it then you shouldn't have had to. After everyone was recalled and they knew the numbers of who was learning and who chose not to, then they should of hired. Instead if you said no then you were skipped around and had to wait till they needed your body back on property.

A few other things, when Delta started Song those of us on furlough had to INTERVIEW for our job back to fly the same planes, with the same Pilot's, only with a different uniform and of course lower pay, and all to be not a F/A but "Song Talent". We had the A-day type program at Song and I hated it then and did so till my last day at Delta. It just made violating seniority easier and let them dish out all the trips and make the new gutted rule book attractive to new hires. Delta became geared toward the low end new hires to further reduce cost's.

When Delta hired the "LOD's" they hired them at second year pay, with all the speaker peark's. All while the past few year's my pay was reduced, all my premium's were gone along with my retirement (Still frozen), and as some of the senior F/A's at Delta feel we at Song were given a great chance to fly back at the company I NEVER LEFT when they slotted us back in from Song. I was surprised they did this and didn't just dump us on the street and say sorry you no longer work for Delta, Song went under. After the whole LOD bull, I had had enough and in my opinion it was time to GO. So instead of staying and remaining unhappy I decided to either stay and go back to school again or if I got hired with CAL just start over and that's what I did. If we had gotten the union in I would not of gone through what I did in such a short amount of time and Delta would not of been able to rape us. I was dumb and fell for the Delta "Family" bull and never thought I would go through what I did.

One last thing! A lot of people will deny it or won't remember it but we did outsource F/A's before. We had a India route out of *I Think* CDG and it was staffed with Indian F/A's.

 

[Dignity]

had to INTERVIEW for our job back to fly the same planes, with the same Pilot's, only with a different uniform and of course lower pay

to my understanding mainline aircraft was utilized for that operation...the 757?

we have to interview for sports charter (but that depends on the client, usually there are dedicated Flight Attendants) or for special assignment positions..

One last thing! A lot of people will deny it or won't remember it but we did outsource F/A's before. We had a India route out of *I Think* CDG and it was staffed with Indian F/A's.

a route to CDG from India or did they fly into the United States?
we have Pacific IFSR that flies into the US, but are not assigned the Flight Attendant position, they serve as interpreter (but are under the direction of the Purser and may be assigned additional tasks), generally two are aboard.

we have country to country flying outside the US, and we fly together US Flight Attendants and Pacific Flight Attendants including a US Purser..

I hope that your decision to go to CAL was the right one, and most importantly, you are happy.

 

[WoRkInG]

HottootrotNyc

I had to rephrase one sentence to make it 100% accurate:


"If they need to save money they will do whatever they need want to do to save it and they don't care who they cut, step-on, or layoff."


2BnB

So what your saying 2blackandblue is that they going to need a union, or at least a prayer for what's about to happen after the drive is over?