What you fail to grasp

Zephyr

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Feb 11, 2003
108
0
[blockquote]
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On 2/22/2003 12:32:28 PM cat 111 wrote:

Good post zephyr, It amazes me how Chip forgot what he said during the iam and cwa talks !!!
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[/blockquote]


Its a vicious cycle. He knifed us so we are gonna knife him.

Gee whiz… …until you guys quit knifing each other at the behest of Austin…

Like I said, If nothing changes, expect nothing to change.

Zephyr
 
OP
Z

Zephyr

Advanced
Feb 11, 2003
108
0
Chip,
The fact is that when the other unions were intent on sticking to their agreements in place, you beat the drum for Austin and propagated the mantra of “If you don’t give, you will force the airline into liquidation.â€￾ You even argued the cockamamie idea that if mechanics failed to vote for the TA (during the second vote) that their union would be sued, and that the mechanics would each individually be responsible for $20,000 or more in “duesâ€￾ to cover the law suit. (because they voted no!?!)
The fact is that you should have supported them then.
What you don’t get is that they are using the same arguments against you that you used against them. And by the way, you are now singing the same tune that they were singing back then.
And the ironic part is that the medicine you dished out (give up your buddy to save your job), has been served in larger doses to ALPA than any other union.
I hope that the employees will be see fit to freely hand out apologies and forgiveness to each other, even as they have freely handed out money to mgt.
If nothing changes, expect nothing to change.
Zephyr
 

cat 111

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Aug 25, 2002
230
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Good post zephyr, It amazes me how Chip forgot what he said during the iam and cwa talks !!!
 

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
7,784
456
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 12:44:16 PM Zephyr wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 12:32:28 PM cat 111 wrote:

Good post zephyr, It amazes me how Chip forgot what he said during the iam and cwa talks !!!
----------------
[/blockquote]


Its a vicious cycle. He knifed us so we are gonna knife him.

Gee whiz… …until you guys quit knifing each other at the behest of Austin…

Like I said, If nothing changes, expect nothing to change.

Zephyr





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[/blockquote]

You make a very sound point and argument.
 
C

chipmunn

Guest
Zephyr:

Zephyr said: "What you don’t get is that they are using the same arguments against you that you used against them. And by the way, you are now singing the same tune that they were singing back then. And the ironic part is that the medicine you dished out (give up your buddy to save your job), has been served in larger doses to ALPA than any other union."

Chip comments: Zephyr, I disagree. Every group took a restructuring agreement and modified restructuring agreement cut, but nobody except the pilots has taken a third cut with their retirement this year or has been asked for a devastating fourth cut.

I wholeheartedly supported the first two rounds of cuts because we all sacrificed to save the airline, but then things changed.

As stated above, ALPA then took a third cut when LOA 83 was MEC ratified with the company holding a loaded gun to the MEC’s head, to lower the company's pension obligation, but did any other group? Now management wants ALPA to take a fourth cut, but it appears it's not going to happen in the current form, regardless of what happens to the company.

ALPA has made concessions to lower US Airways' pension obligation while retirement fund market values have been reduced, by nobody else has. In fact, the other seven defined benefit plans have gone down by about $500 million with no non-ALPA employee retirement concessions to fund the other defined benefit pensions.

The fact is every employee except the pilots have only taken the initial and modified restructuring agreement cuts, where ALPA has already taken the additional LOA 83 retirement cut. Now management is seeking to have only the pilots have their pension terminated. Even the FSA and CSA employees cannot make the claim their pension was terminated and all of their benefits eliminated.

I recognize life is not always fair, but the January 21 ALPA code-a-phone said the RSA testimony centered on its financing agreement with US Airways. The RSA representative admitted after making numerous evasive statements under cross-examination that there are potentially other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions, other than to terminate the pilots’ pension plan. He testified that RSA was "deeply skeptical" that the pilots pension plan could not be terminated, and when asked if RSA was using or going to use its DIP financing agreement to apply negotiating leverage against ALPA and the US Airways pilots, the RSA representative testified "no."

Well Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass' fast track restructuring is at risk and yesterday Mr. Butler told the court liquidation is imminent. Well if true and the pension is the only major item holding up bankruptcy emergence, then if RSA says "(there are) other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions" I suggest that management and RSA find those alternatives.

In my opinion, either an acceptable alternative to ALPA is found or Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass will see their restructuring fail.

Zephyr, this is ALPA's fight and I do not want to see anybody lose anything else, but with all due respect, I strongly disagree with your comments above because the facts prove different.

When you or any other group take three pension cuts and is asked for a fourth devastating cut, then you would have an argument to support your comments above. Until then, I believe your comparison and thoughts are invalid.

Sincerely,

Chip
 

tadjr

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
3,511
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TPA
www.airlineforums.com
I guess one mans third cut is another mans second cut. Some of us on the second cut were just trying to survive with enough to make the basic payments of our day to day lives. I guess it just depends on what you had to start with before the cuts affected you. I guess thats why so many are upset with your previous do it or leave attitude that has suddenly changed. We were at the point then that you are at now except ours was not even retirement related, we were thinking surviving today.
I also want to correct something you've stated recently Chip regarding other groups being able to make "extra" money by working overtime or extra hours. In some cities there isnt ANY overtime available. They arent covering shifts and the only overtime you can get is when the s*it is hitting the fan and you are forced to stay. There is very limited "extra" time available when someone wants off and its usually gone the day its posted. Its not as easy for some of us to make up our losses anymore as you make it appear to be.
 

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 5:08:31 PM PineyBob wrote:

Way back before I met PITbull on line here I wrote several posts regarding unions and the "divide & conquer" strategy of Management. It sparked a lively debate to be certain. IF labor wants to accomplish anything they must IMHO:

Retreat & Regroup - now is not the time to engage in open warfare. Swallow your pride and eat the darn Dog food, FOR NOW!

Use your grievence procedures to point out wastefulness by US. Be public about it. Stock prices are affected by negative publicty. Look at the publicity that stupid little cockroach thing I helped get started generated. You point out waste and mismanagement and the stock price dips you hit Ben & Dave and the rest right where they live. In the wallet!

Use your Union Leadership to badger management into productivity. Remember in this new paradigm (had to use corp speak, just to be an ###) your compensation is tied to profits and you want lots and lots of them.

When YOU have turned around US Airways, regardless of whether management was a willing or unwilling partner, come after them like a rabid pack of Rotwielers (Don't you just love that visual). After all turnabout is fair play. They used the sword of liqudation to beat you to the ground, you do the same and use the strike threat to extract whatever you can.

The bottom line is think creatively and come together as one. Drag this airline into profitability and take MORE than your fair share. Remember the old line UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL. You have to break down the walls that separate so that you can speak as one. Use this pension thing to your advantage. 401K's are the wave of the future. maybe if all defined benefit plans were terminated you could find a way to create a uniform pension for ALL employees union & non union. Do it exchange for more profit sharing.

One of the reasons for Ford's comeback in the late 80's was the UAW's willingness to accept a portion of their pay tied to performance. This was the Wall Street Journals assessment, not exactly a labor friendly group. They also set up "Employee Involvement teams". Ford's UAW employees income was directly tied into the performance of the company. Look at SWA in your industry. This works. Like I said be creative, be first, make them stand up and take notice.
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[/blockquote]

If you ever run for President, I'm changing to Libertarian and voting for you!
 

MCORORES

Senior
Aug 19, 2002
317
0
www.usaviation.com
Chip...with all due respect other groups already gave in '92 while others recieved. Am I crying over things of the past? No just given out the facts. So by using your point with a counter point. Some groups were already "one up" in give backs well prior to 9/11. This just evens the score IMO. I know it stinks, been there and done that. I just hope ALPA is looking beyond the pension issue. Sometimes we all need to look beyond the problem to see the solution.
 
C

chipmunn

Guest
MCORORES:

I fully understand the FSA and CSA issue, but I would gladly have my pension frozen instead of terminated. In fact, if ALPA was offered the same deal as the FSA and CSA agents there would not be a pension fight.

Chip
 

T-bone

Advanced
Feb 15, 2003
239
2
Chipster your still missing the cogent point. Alpa's terminated plan would still pay more through the PBGC then the CSA frozen plan. Please understand you stand to make twice what they could with a terminated plan, plus the company is still offering you more. Got that. Now if you kill the host none of you will not gain anything.
 

stewbear

Member
Jan 28, 2003
92
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 5:45:14 PM chipmunn wrote:

Zephyr:

Zephyr said: "What you don’t get is that they are using the same arguments against you that you used against them. And by the way, you are now singing the same tune that they were singing back then. And the ironic part is that the medicine you dished out (give up your buddy to save your job), has been served in larger doses to ALPA than any other union."

Chip comments: Zephyr, I disagree. Every group took a restructuring agreement and modified restructuring agreement cut, but nobody except the pilots has taken a third cut with their retirement this year or has been asked for a devastating fourth cut.

I wholeheartedly supported the first two rounds of cuts because we all sacrificed to save the airline, but then things changed.

As stated above, ALPA then took a third cut when LOA 83 was MEC ratified with the company holding a loaded gun to the MEC’s head, to lower the company's pension obligation, but did any other group? Now management wants ALPA to take a fourth cut, but it appears it's not going to happen in the current form, regardless of what happens to the company.

ALPA has made concessions to lower US Airways' pension obligation while retirement fund market values have been reduced, by nobody else has. In fact, the other seven defined benefit plans have gone down by about $500 million with no non-ALPA employee retirement concessions to fund the other defined benefit pensions.

The fact is every employee except the pilots have only taken the initial and modified restructuring agreement cuts, where ALPA has already taken the additional LOA 83 retirement cut. Now management is seeking to have only the pilots have their pension terminated. Even the FSA and CSA employees cannot make the claim their pension was terminated and all of their benefits eliminated.

I recognize life is not always fair, but the January 21 ALPA code-a-phone said the RSA testimony centered on its financing agreement with US Airways. The RSA representative admitted after making numerous evasive statements under cross-examination that there are potentially other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions, other than to terminate the pilots’ pension plan. He testified that RSA was "deeply skeptical" that the pilots pension plan could not be terminated, and when asked if RSA was using or going to use its DIP financing agreement to apply negotiating leverage against ALPA and the US Airways pilots, the RSA representative testified "no."

Well Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass' fast track restructuring is at risk and yesterday Mr. Butler told the court liquidation is imminent. Well if true and the pension is the only major item holding up bankruptcy emergence, then if RSA says "(there are) other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions" I suggest that management and RSA find those alternatives.

In my opinion, either an acceptable alternative to ALPA is found or Mr. Siegel and Mr. Glass will see their restructuring fail.

Zephyr, this is ALPA's fight and I do not want to see anybody lose anything else, but with all due respect, I strongly disagree with your comments above because the facts prove different.

When you or any other group take three pension cuts and is asked for a fourth devastating cut, then you would have an argument to support your comments above. Until then, I believe your comparison and thoughts are invalid.

Sincerely,

Chip
----------------
[/blockquote]
Chip,
With all the givebacks the entire employee groups have given back and the $$ from GE, do we really need the 200 million from B? That seems to be a pittance for all we are giving up. Can't we get rid of that L**CH. I am asking you because you seem to have some information that isn't shared with the rest of us. Respectfully, Stewbear
 
OP
Z

Zephyr

Advanced
Feb 11, 2003
108
0
Who gave you guys the idea that you need to beat up on your neighbor so that you can keep your job?

Has anyone noticed that Austin and company get 8% of the new stock. And has anyone noticed who gets almost 40% of the company for $250 million?

Have you all forgotten that the employees have given over a billion dollars a year, and the authorization for over 500 Airplanes to be operated at affiliate express carriers, (though SouthWest has long ago proved the irrelevance of express affiliates to profitability).

Clearly, the company has far more than it needs to make a profit. (If they can’t make a profit with what they have already been given, then they shouldn’t be allowed to stay at home without adult supervision.) If you guys are willing to give anymore, you will soon find that Austin miscalculated (I'm sorry agian), and now needs you to pay to use the restroom, or he will be forced to stop buying toilet paper, blah, blah,blah.

If you all would stop beating each other long enough to look around, you might be able to notice what further givebacks are accomplishing.

Zeph
 

OldpropGuy

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
185
8
This repetitive thing from Chip and U ALPA about how we gave, gave, gave, more than any other employee group is getting a little old.

The fact is that the pilot group also took, took, took, more than anyone else when the opportunity arose. The "what's in it for us if we allow RJ's" (even though our strong scope clause against RJ's created the big disadvantage here, when all other major airlines were using them instead of turboprops,) "ridiculous parity plus one raises," year after year, etc. while the other employee groups didn't benefit, seem to be conviently overlooked by some.
 

ONTHESTREET

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
198
0
Parity plus one was 100% Wolfs Idea. He is the one who pushed that during contract 98. ALPA did not want it. Remember that Wolf thought that parity plus one would result in drastic pay cuts for the pilots.........just another item to show that he had no clue.
 
C

chipmunn

Guest
Stew:

Stew said: With all the givebacks the entire employee groups have given back and the $$ from GE, do we really need the 200 million from B? That seems to be a pittance for all we are giving up. Can't we get rid of that L**CH. I am asking you because you seem to have some information that isn't shared with the rest of us.

Chip comments: Stew, today I saw the company's financial data, cash flow target, and liquidity situation and it isn't pretty. I wish there was another way around the financing requirements, but there is not.

US missed its public debt payment on Thursday because cash is tight; therefore, there must be a successful resolution to the pilot pension problem to permit the release of the final DIP payment, loan guarantee, and equity investment or the airline will likely liquidate before the end of March.

The good news is that the company anticipates reaching agreement on these payments during the 10 business-day cure period allowed for these payments, the company has changed its pilot pension plan termination petition, and RSA told the court there are potentially other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions, other than to terminate the pilots’ pension plan.

Chip
 

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