Wholly Owned Employees.....


Nov 8, 2002
Something about this really hits me as being a bunch of bull. Wholly owned employees make dirt as everyone out there knows, but whats really sad is the dirt bags are asking the stores workers to take a cut in pay..these folks are lucky to make $7.50 ph.....thats right,most work two jobs have kids ect..Express,W/Os added over 1 million to Us pocket last year...and you never hear Uncle Dave say squat about them good.


Oct 19, 2002
Last week PSA customer service reps and baggage handlers, represented by the Teamsters, voted to reject a tentative restructuring agreement. The tally was 38 to ratify, 398 to reject. PSA gate and ramp workers are employed in Cincinnati, Evansville, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Lexington, Pittsburgh, Toledo, and Williamsport.

This was the last group at PSA who needed to ratify a consessionary contract in order for PSA to emerge from bankruptcy with Group. Its sad that group is even asking these employees to take cuts. When Dave said that any employee that made less than $30,000 a year would not be asked to give, apparently wasn't talking about the WOs.

The WOs have been cash cows for Group for many years and its time to give us some respect Dave!

I do have one question for some of you business types though. How can Dave threaten to keep the WOs in bankruptcy while the rest of group emerges. According to all the paperwork I've been getting since going into bankruptcy, it leads me to belive that the courts look at us (Mainline, PDT, ALG, and PSA) as one company. So can someone go into detail about how he can bring one out without bringing the rest out?


Aug 20, 2002
Having known many people involved with the TOL PSA station - I can only feel for them. The station manager left and is now running MDW for C8, the current manager is so overworked because PSA is refusing to allow her to hire a supervisor, and lets not forget they start at about $2-4 less than all other airlines - that at least serve TOL.

First thing that comes to mind, why in heck did the glorious Teamsters negotiate pay rates so dirt cheap? Let's not even get into being fully responsible for their uniforms - and then having to pay 100% for them, even if they are never worn because they left for greener pastures.

Teamsters sure isn't doing their job for the PSA folks...and I would be darned sure that they wouldn't forcefully take any union dues for doing nothing productive. Unfortunately Ohio isn't a Right to Work state, so workers have no rights to refuse to pay dues to an ineffective union.


Jan 28, 2003
Alg mechanics rejected our cuts, of coarse half of nuthin is nuthin. Management is furious with us and now has implimented health benifits costing anywhere from 300-700 a month. Thanks USAirways, you are managing to destroy the spirit of every employee at your wholly owned companies. I am embarresed to be a part of any of it.


Oct 29, 2002
turnover in your area is a fact of life.they have and will live with it.lots of mainline mech's are former express people.when they left some new guy outa school hired on for experience....so whats the big deal about turnover?fact of life.


Nov 8, 2002
The light will go off in their brains when they have so many AMTs, Techs, and CSAs leave, yes... there jobs out there. I ve had 3 phone calls this week from companys and placement firms looking for AMTs and AV techs paying much better $$$, Timco in GSO is looking for 100 plus, Polar AirCargo, JetBlue, all starting with the right experience up to $19.00, plus Lics, pay. One offered $1,500.00 sign on bonus to me for a 6 mon.contract..so my advice to the powers to be is they are postions out there,and you will lose you most experienced AMTs, Techs,its already begun


Aug 21, 2002
On 2/15/2003 8:05:01 AM DELLDUDE wrote:

turnover in your area is a fact of life.they have and will live with it.lots of mainline mech's are former express people.when they left some new guy outa school hired on for experience....so whats the big deal about turnover?fact of life.

The big deal about turnover is that it costs much more money than keeping experienced employees, nowhere is this more true than in aircraft maintenance. Since we are in bankruptcy, the whole idea is saving money isn't it?? Contrary to your statement, many seasoned and experienced mechanics work for the wholly owned carriers. They have been here for a long time and know the equipment inside and out. These guys/girls are are in and of themselves a cost saving asset by staying on at the airline over the long term, and learning the aircraft to the highest levels possible. Sure any A&P out of school can saftey wire a nut and change a taxi light as good as anybody. But contrary to popular belief, especially those at a "mailine" carrier that fail to understand, the DHC-8 is a complicated machine. And when you get a complicated problem, the seasond mechanic has probably seen it before and can start the process of fixing it. The rookie out of school will go through a lot of trial and error and take a lot of time to to do even simple tasks. Time is money, a lot of money when it comes to this industry. It is undeniable that a competent, seasoned mechanic will keep more aircraft flying in the least amount of time. The "bean counter" might see nothing but "mechanic A makes more than mechanic B right out of school, therefore mechanic B is more desirable". The bean counter accountant has no concept of the money saved (which again is the goal) by the highly experienced mechanic keeping fleet dispatch reliability high and A/C downtime to a minimum.
I find it interesting that when we declared bankruptcy, Top management was givin millions in bonuses. The rational was that we need to retain talented people, who might go elsewhere, to keep the airline running smoothly. Why in the world does this not apply at the lower levels.
As a Captain in this business for over a decade, I have seen countless examples of experience saving money and time.


Dec 13, 2002
Food for thought, read and weep!


Well, we got to see the "Term Sheet" from our management here at United yesterday. That is, what they "propose" to us for a contract for the next six years, and, if we don't accept it, what they'll file with the Bankruptcy Court under Section 1113© to "give us an offer we can't refuse."

It's an attention-getter. Some of the highlights, or, I should say, lowlights:

-Base hourly pay rates reduced 29%

-Elimination of all premium pay - international, late-night, etc.

-Elimination of the company contribution to the Pilot Directed Account (that's another 11% for a total of 40% pay reduction, not counting the rest, below)

-Reduce the multiplier for the Defined Benefit Plan to 1.3 (from 1.5)

-Reduce monthly guarantee to 60 hours (from 75)

-Reduce minimum days off to 10 (from 12)

-Reduce max vacation to 5 weeks (after 20 years)

-Require between 20 and 40% co-pay on health insurance

-Eliminate short-term disability and occupational sick leave

-Eliminate furlough protection, all scope clauses, all limitations regarding RJs and mainline aircraft fleet size, and domestic code-sharing.

-Eliminate virtually all duty and scheduling rigs.

-Allow all layovers, regardless of length, to be field layovers

-Reduce per diem pay by 40%

-Use non-landing-qualified IRPs on long range flights vs First Officers

-Eliminate all limitations regarding closing of domiciles, and institute a 3-year equipment freeze in all positions

-Sick leave bank reduced by 60%

-Commensurate reductions in the quality of retirement benefits

I saved the best one for last: Start a new sub-brand LOW COST carrier to compete with Jet Blue, etc. Low Cost?! Compared to what? I think what that really means is a separate carrier that'll hire pilots from off the street - or hopefully our furloughed people - for entry-level wages and no work-rules. This carrier will probably gradually start taking over United's flying.

Now, guys, I know you've all been reading in the business press for several months the sordid details of what a basket-case UAL is, but consider a few facts:
Between 1994 and 2000, this is an airline that netted over $7 billion in profit. Gross mismanagement cost it a great deal of its cash going into the current slump in the airline business (US Air, Avolar, failure to stay on top of the money market as the need for loans became obvious). And, no help from the government in the form of the ATSB after 9-11.

All the major labor groups got new contracts in the two years following 2000, that got lots of attention in the media. The most generous and infamous was the pilots' contract. It was our first raise in ten years, but it was a big one that was immediately labeled as "excessive" by airline managements everywhere. But when you factor in inflation, (use any calculator you want; I used the one on NASA's website), that wonderful contract actually only brought us to 98% of what we were compensated in 1978, the year I started at United. You guys at AA and DL, pull out your old contracts from the '76-'78 timeframe and check it out.

Couple that with the 40% pay cut (I'm not even going to whine about the guarantee-drop or the work-rules gems), and we're going to be making about 41 or 42% less than pilots in the same seat did 25 years ago. And we weren't even the highest-paid back then.

I saw Senator McCain (one of the few pols I used to like) at the hearings in D.C. Thursday saying that labor costs, and largely pilot compensation, was to blame for most of the airlines' woes ("Why can't they have the same costs as Jet Blue?"), and therefore "tax relief for the airlines is not appropriate at this time." (Taxes make up 26% of the price of the average ticket, up 145% from ten years ago) Well, like most politicians, Senator McCain comes armed with only a handful of the facts. Jet Blue is a "virtual" airline with no infrastructure, giveback leases and sweetheart deferred payments (not unlike your basic Mitsubishi Montero) to Airbus. Southwest is a wonderful company. But they have a different product, and they don't fly to Boston or San Francisco, they fly to Providence and Oakland. And Senator, I defy you to identify another job description (particularly one that requires a degree, licensing, and an average of 8 years of "apprenticeship" to qualify) that's paid 40% less now than in 1978.

ALPA gets to negotiate for us under the oversight of the Bankruptcy Court, and the company or the judge may throw us a bone here or there. But there's a strong likelihood that we'll end up with MOST of the above give-backs (or is that take-aways), because the company's management team holds ALL the trump cards, and we all want United Airlines to survive. What has happened to United, along with the smoldering crisis facing the rest of the industry, has got to be the dream scenario for airline management teams everywhere.
What a magnificent opportunity to reshape a labor model developed over the last sixty years.

And if you saw and heard Mr. Carty and the other airline executives at the hearings in Washington last week, you know what they want, folks.

Hang onto your wallets.

-UAL 777 Cap SFO


Aug 20, 2002
Mechanics ratified their TA Friday. AFA and ALPA are on board. Stores and Dispatchers vote ends around the 18th.