Why No Q400s?

TBONEJ4J

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
270
43
A quote from the VP of Marketing and Planning at Horizon Airlines.

Despite some initial concern about customer acceptance of the Q400 turboprop,
"from the customers' point of view, it has been very well received," Zachwieja
said. "It's roomy, with a 33-inch seat pitch, it's comfortable and it's fast.
It's the best ride in our fleet today." He also noted that the Q400 goes
head-to-head with Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV) in some markets that are 250 to
300 miles, and does well.


Further to that, according to a report in Flight International on the RAA Convention a few months ago, Horizon is not only doing well against LUV with the Q400, but is actually taking share from them in some of those markets.

Why? Because in those markets the breakeven Load Factor for the Q400 is somewhere aroud .79 @ $40 or so per seat (it's been a while since I read the article so the numbers might be a little off, but that's the ballpark figure).

Customers dislike Turboprops because of bad marketing and poor product. B1900 and Jestreams are good airplanes but provide a very poor product for sensitive human cargo. The Dash 8/100/200/300 is no B1900 or Jetstream and it provides a superior product(when the aircraft are at least cleaned and maintained to stop the trim rattling, anyway). The Q400 is in a different league entirely.

The Q400 provides a passenger product that far surpasses all of these aircraft and the ERJ135/145 CRJ200/700 Type, with financials that blow any of them away. On segments up to 500nm it can match any ERJ or CRJ or Boeing or Airbus, up to 1000nm it loses a bit on the block but the comfort element will certainly make up the difference if the alternative is the ERJ pencil size compartment.

Customers already gripe and moan about the tiny regional jets and how small and uncomfortable the cabin is. Nowadays, just about every passenger is concerned with the lowest fare, which is far more important to them than the type of aircraft they are on. If you fly them LGA-FLL on a B747 they'd still gripe about the airplane. Give them a Q400 LGA-FLL @ $60 one-way with a large cabin, a first-class section and performance numbers that match the RJ's with the comforts of a B737 and make a killing on the east coast, because no other airline will be able to offer a lower fare and still breakeven.

A golden opportunity is being missed here. Hell, I think I'll go to my Bank Manager and see if I can start an airline with Q400s. The first ad will be "Don't be fooled by the engines, this is the most modern and technically advanced airplane in the World". The next "Did you know that the Boeing 777 you are riding on is a propeller airplane? They just put a mask over the propeller so you don't see it."
Then "All Seats, All flights $60. New York to Florida at a price you like."

Why doesn't someone have the vision to see the difference between fatal marketing and poor product. Then, take an airplane with outstanding financials and performance, market it properly and give Southwest, JetBlue and AirTran some real competition.
 
:up:

It would be a refreshing change from the SAAB's and RJ's that are constantly breaking down. But this idea makes too much sense so it won't bejoing our fleet anytime soon.
 
Interesting article, TBone. As you pointed out, travelers in Europe are not so "freaked out " over turboprops and many airlines use both RJs and advanced props in suited markets.
The original, independent Shuttle America had the idea of flying Dash 8s throughout the East Coast with low fares into secondary airports. For example, they tackled the popular Boston to Philadelphia route as Bedford-Trenton (this is the only remaining original route that they do as US Airways Express with really customer unfriendly Saabs). If I recall correctly they operated the Dash 8 300.
 
I proposed this idea about 2 or 3 years ago and nothing has happened - although I think that a RJ on a 150 mile route is a lot less efficient than would be either a Das8-300 or Q400. Those CLT to AVL and CLT to ILM flights would be great -300 and -400 routes.
 
I've heard these sentiments from several people familiar with both the Q400 and some of the RJs currently in use. The 400 seems to beat (or at least match) RJs in practically every category: equal speed over certain segments, carries more people and bags (and does it out of shorter fields), provides state-of-the-art noise and vibration cancelling technology (cabin often quieter than an RJ), and does so in a larger, more comfortable cabin while costing less per hour to operate. I agree that both the manufacturers and the airlines should have done a better job of marketing what appears to be an excellent aircraft, emphasizing its strengths as well as the fact that some communities might be able to maintain air service rather than lose it due to pure economics. Passenger acceptance may have been surprisingly good had this been done, but I think the time has probably passed; many people still think that anything other than a jet is antiquated and therefore unacceptable, reality notwithstanding.
 
Passengers don't like seeing propellers. :shock: It's a fact of life. To the average passenger (especially the type found looking for $60 LGA-FLL fares,) a propeller airplane is antiquated technology and they want no part of it.

Truth has nothing to do with it, as anyone who watches media coverage of the airlines can attest to.
 
Some routes, such as CLT-HHH cannot be operated by anything but a turboprop. HHH is such a short field it cannot even accomodate a DH8-300. This route is always jam packed. If we are totally getting rid of the DH8 fleet, what is going to operate this route? I am sure there are others like it as well
 
N628AU said:
Some routes, such as CLT-HHH cannot be operated by anything but a turboprop. HHH is such a short field it cannot even accomodate a DH8-300. This route is always jam packed. If we are totally getting rid of the DH8 fleet, what is going to operate this route? I am sure there are others like it as well
Wow. Didn't realize how short the runway at HHH is - 4300 feet. DL gets a RJ into EYW at 4800 feet. I guess that 500 extra feet makes quite a difference.

I'm surprised that a 300Q could not make it off 4300 feet. They certainly could use it given that they run at least 9 or 10 daily Dash-8s into there.
 
N628AU said:
Some routes, such as CLT-HHH cannot be operated by anything but a turboprop. HHH is such a short field it cannot even accomodate a DH8-300. This route is always jam packed. If we are totally getting rid of the DH8 fleet, what is going to operate this route? I am sure there are others like it as well
Actually, this is not true, the DHC8-300 will operate in and out of HHH just fine.
I believe we can even get it in and out at the MGTW of 43,000 lbs, we just have to Take off flaps 15 instead of 5 and we can only go out full off of RWY 3
We do fly the -300 in to HHH a few times a day.
 
www.bombardier.com

you have to go through some drop-downs: commercial aero, then regional aircraft.

It's not a very user friendly presentation.

I think loading bridges would go a long way toward blurring the perception difference between mainline and regional aircraft and between regional 'props' and regional 'jets"
 
Good points. Jets sound (and look) sexy, when you're talking about a fleet, but on short hops trafffic is generally slowed anyway, so the speed advantage disappears. Kind of like running a Ferrari on I-95. It can pass anything, but never gets up to that kind of speed with all that traffic.
 
DHC8Driver,

Thanks for the update, I know they did not intially, and I was very surprised they did not considering the loads. Did HHH clear some of the trees at the end of the ruinway? I know this was an intial concern.
 
nycbusdriver said:
Passengers don't like seeing propellers. :shock: It's a fact of life. To the average passenger (especially the type found looking for $60 LGA-FLL fares,) a propeller airplane is antiquated technology and they want no part of it.

Truth has nothing to do with it, as anyone who watches media coverage of the airlines can attest to.
Passengers don't like propellers because they expect them to be attached to a B1900 or Jetstream. Therein lies the opportunity.

When they walk down a Jetway into a large cabin, put their bags in the very large overhead, sit down in a first class seat and get to their destination fast and quietly, there will be little concern as to the Powerplant. Horizon Airlines has effectively proven this in their operation.

ITrade:

I recall you brought this up some time ago, on the PlaneBusiness Board if memory serves me right. Unfortunately, US Airways lacked, and STILL lacks, anyone in Management who is truly visionary and is willing to take a risk outside of the prevailing more RJs mentality. What is different now is that another airline actually took that risk and proved the potential of the Q400. Perhaps with that Data, the risk averse planners in CCY might revisit the idea of employing and marketing a truly superior aircraft.


Real success comes when someone reinvents the wheel in some form. To look past the accepted wisdom of "...passengers hate propellers..." is to reinvent the wheel. If US Airways doesn't do it, eventually somebody else will.

5 years from now when the high level routes are ground stopped because of way too many RJs needing to get there, we will see who will be operating the Q400 that is still running on time because it can do the same job at 8000ft.

Anybody want to start an Airline with me? :up:
 
TBONEJ4J said:
A quote from the VP of Marketing and Planning at Horizon Airlines.

Despite some initial concern about customer acceptance of the Q400 turboprop,
"from the customers' point of view, it has been very well received," Zachwieja
said. "It's roomy, with a 33-inch seat pitch, it's comfortable and it's fast.
It's the best ride in our fleet today." He also noted that the Q400 goes
head-to-head with Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV) in some markets that are 250 to
300 miles, and does well.


Further to that, according to a report in Flight International on the RAA Convention a few months ago, Horizon is not only doing well against LUV with the Q400, but is actually taking share from them in some of those markets.

Why? Because in those markets the breakeven Load Factor for the Q400 is somewhere aroud .79 @ $40 or so per seat (it's been a while since I read the article so the numbers might be a little off, but that's the ballpark figure).

Customers dislike Turboprops because of bad marketing and poor product. B1900 and Jestreams are good airplanes but provide a very poor product for sensitive human cargo. The Dash 8/100/200/300 is no B1900 or Jetstream and it provides a superior product(when the aircraft are at least cleaned and maintained to stop the trim rattling, anyway). The Q400 is in a different league entirely.

The Q400 provides a passenger product that far surpasses all of these aircraft and the ERJ135/145 CRJ200/700 Type, with financials that blow any of them away. On segments up to 500nm it can match any ERJ or CRJ or Boeing or Airbus, up to 1000nm it loses a bit on the block but the comfort element will certainly make up the difference if the alternative is the ERJ pencil size compartment.

Customers already gripe and moan about the tiny regional jets and how small and uncomfortable the cabin is. Nowadays, just about every passenger is concerned with the lowest fare, which is far more important to them than the type of aircraft they are on. If you fly them LGA-FLL on a B747 they'd still gripe about the airplane. Give them a Q400 LGA-FLL @ $60 one-way with a large cabin, a first-class section and performance numbers that match the RJ's with the comforts of a B737 and make a killing on the east coast, because no other airline will be able to offer a lower fare and still breakeven.

A golden opportunity is being missed here. Hell, I think I'll go to my Bank Manager and see if I can start an airline with Q400s. The first ad will be "Don't be fooled by the engines, this is the most modern and technically advanced airplane in the World". The next "Did you know that the Boeing 777 you are riding on is a propeller airplane? They just put a mask over the propeller so you don't see it."
Then "All Seats, All flights $60. New York to Florida at a price you like."

Why doesn't someone have the vision to see the difference between fatal marketing and poor product. Then, take an airplane with outstanding financials and performance, market it properly and give Southwest, JetBlue and AirTran some real competition.
If a Boeing 777 is a prop as per: TBONEJ4J , with comparing the Q400, why does'nt the Q400 cruise at 35K ++ and span oceans...??? Do'nt even try to compare a 777 to A EGG BEATER!!! What a laugh :up: