Wo Resolution: No Voting For Alpa J4j Pilots

[Furloughedagain]

:down: PSA, Piedmont, and Allegheny wholly-owned pilots have sponsered a resolution which would keep Jets4jobs participants from voting or holding office at their carriers.

This dangerous precident appears to leave furloughed US Airways jets4jobs participents without fair representation or a voice in their union. I believe that it is a dangerous and exclusionary practice which should be quickly addressed by ALPA national.

The language of the resolution is below.

PROBLEM:
How can a pilot, with his/her career interests at mainline US Airways, be expected to act in the best interest of an Express carrier?

Should US Airways pilots be able to vote and hold office at a wholly owned or contract carrier while participating in Jets for Jobs?

SUBJECT:
Voting or holding office at affiliated carriers through Jets for Jobs

(Dual Seniority on affiliated carriers)

SOURCE:
PSA Airlines

BACKGROUND:
Jets for jobs is a new concept with unique problems. US Airways pilots have managed to obtain jobs at Express carriers without communication or negotiation with said carriers.

With the advent of “Jets for Jobsâ€￾, the potential exists for mainline pilots to hold union positions where they can make policy changes and advance agendas that would benefit them and mainline with little or no regard to the company or the pilots of the affiliated carriers.

PROPOSED RESOLUTION:
Whereas jets for jobs is a new concept with unique problems, and

Whereas Jets for Jobs has been embraced by ALPA national and signed by ALPA President Captain Duane E. Woerth, and

Whereas the (USAirways) mainline pilots have already negotiated items causing potential harm to affiliate pilots without consulting any affiliated carriers, and

Whereas (USAirways) mainline has shown no intent in stopping their pursuit of negotiating agreements to protect their pilots at the expense of affiliate pilots, and

Whereas this continued negligence could lead to the downfall of ALPA.

Therefore be it resolved that the mainline pilots shall be barred from voting or holding an elected office at a participating affiliate carrier through Jets for Jobs until such a time an equitable solution can be found.

Moved PSA

 

[FLYLOW22]

Well it doesn't sound like PDT or ALG will be around much longer anyway so.... whatever. If PSA wants to promote dissention within the ranks and open themselves up for a "lack of fair representation" lawsuit then fine.... let them eat cake. I shudder at the fall out though.

 

[exagony]

This dangerous precident appears to leave furloughed US Airways jets4jobs participents without fair representation or a voice in their union.

1. Kinda like the same thing that happened at the WO's when the J4J extortion plan by ML U was forced down their throats. J4J or out of bx.

I believe that it is a dangerous and exclusionary practice which should be quickly addressed by ALPA national.

2. Don't expect anything from ALPA National - the J4J participents are now part of the red headed step shildren known as PDT, ALG and PSA. Now maybe they'll enjoy the reaming the wo's have been enjoying for years.

 

[ClueByFour]

Given what the mainline ALPA MECs (and parituclarly the airways MEC with "j4j") have done in the past, I'd say turnabout is fair play.

Maybe now the j4j guys will get a taste of what the folks behind the RJDC suit have been clamoring about for years.

I guess the "old young" are extracting revenge on those who tried to eat them in the past. Bravo.

 

[Furloughedagain]

Regardless of your feelings regarding your past treatment by the mainline MEC, these pilots are still ALPA members and, as such, are entitled to fair representation -- i/e a vote.

As the juniormost US Airways pilots (at one time) they were not the individuals who kept you from acquiring more advanced equipment, prevented a flowthrough, or agreed to affiliate codeshares. Just as at most companies, the junior pilots at US Airways had very little political power to effect change.

To subject them by resolution to anything less than full ALPA member status would require a change in ALPA bylaws. I would be surprised if this resolution would be signed by Woerth.

What you're suggesting is taking away the rights of individual pilots. Why should these pilots even bother paying ALPA dues? Like it or not the J4J pilots will be a part of your companies. They're not likely to be very pleased with the mainline MEC either -- perhaps they would bring something to your company. Artificially segregating your own pilot group is the most rediculous ALPA-borne policy i've ever heard of.

You should be ashamed.

 

[a320av8r]

No vote- No dues.

 

[LavMan]

What that resolution proposes is illegal.

 

[exagony]

Regardless of your feelings regarding your past treatment by the mainline MEC, these pilots are still ALPA members and, as such, are entitled to fair representation -- i/e a vote.

1. Almost like th WO vote for J4J. Say yes or lose your job - tough. Don't even try to claim that the WO members and the ML members votes are counted the same at ALPA national. Follow the money trail.

As the juniormost US Airways pilots (at one time) they were not the individuals who kept you from acquiring more advanced equipment, prevented a flowthrough, or agreed to affiliate codeshares. Just as at most companies, the junior pilots at US Airways had very little political power to effect change.

2. Considering that the U furloughs are going back to 1988 (give or take a few years) this argument has little to no merit. Whats the saying? You reap what you sow. This is ALL to blame on ML arrogance and shortsightedness.

What that resolution proposes is illegal

3. Just like the entire J4J scam - I think its called extortion - vote this way or lose your job.

Given what the mainline ALPA MECs (and parituclarly the airways MEC with "j4j") have done in the past, I'd say turnabout is fair play.

Maybe now the j4j guys will get a taste of what the folks behind the RJDC suit have been clamoring about for years.

I guess the "old young" are extracting revenge on those who tried to eat them in the past. Bravo.

4. AMEN!

Well it doesn't sound like PDT or ALG will be around much longer anyway so.... whatever.

5. For that matter I wouldn't count on U being around too much longer itself. If I was a betting man I would wager ALG and PDT have a better than 50% shot of being around longer than ML U.

 

[dashflyer]

Regardless of your feelings regarding your past treatment by the mainline MEC, these pilots are still ALPA members and, as such, are entitled to fair representation -- i/e a vote.

I think this has been the feeling of every regional pilot in this industry. Duane Woerth lied to the PDT and ALG pilots about signing off on LOA 83 for over 6 months. Jets 4 Jobs was a document prepared by the Mainline MEC to force their furloughed pilots onto the property of any wholly-owned carrier who got jets. Did the Mainline Negotiating Committee ever consult with either wholly-owned MEC? No. But Duane still signed anyway.

Where is the fair representation in that?

I think this problem has gotten a little larger than Mainline vs. The Wholly-Owneds. Time will tell how it all plays out.

ALPA did go to bat for the American Eagle pilots a week or so ago against the APA. I guess they're better at fighting battles against other unions rather than trying to prevent battles within their own.

 

[BoredToDeath]

FurloughedAgain and all other Furloughed Pilots,

Before judging this please put yourself in our shoes. Jets4Jobs is nothing more than a willfull violation of two entire sections of our contract. One of which is seniority, a basic ALPA right which your group has now taken away from us. How would you expect us to trust you after we've seen what your capable of?

Remember we did'nt start this discrimination. You did.

 

[Bluestreak]

Please remember this is only a resolution and it has not been passed yet. There are a few crazy pilots here that believe mainline pilots are going to try to swipe our jobs.

We do have some reason to be paranoid. We are a very small pilot group. There are only 300 pilots on our seniority list vs. 1800 furloughed mainline pilots.

 

[Furloughedagain]

I think everyone understands your position. Everyone understands your fears. Denying ALPA members in good standing the basic rights which are guaranteed to a union member is not the answer.

By doing so you are creating an artificial dividing line within the group. The pilots who are coming to your companies did not invent the "J4J" concept. They did not talk Dave into purposefully abrogating your contract. They are out-of-work airline pilots who are accepting an opportunity to get back in the sky.

You can accept their experience (both in the aircraft and in dealing with ALPA) as a valuable addition to your pilot group, or you can fight them -- a fight that we will all surely lose as our union is further weakened by your actions.

ALPA does a fine job dividing our nations airline pilots all by themselves. With the new, contractual single-seniority list (wholly-owned -> MDA -> US Airways) there is no reason for us to further expand that divide.

What happened to you is not fair. (jets4jobs, affiliate outsourcing, ALG, PDT...)

What happened to us is not fair. (min block hours, min captains, no-furlough...)

If you would welcome the furloughed pilots with open arms and help them to integrate into your pilot groups I believe you would have powerful allies to help you persuade ALPA national and the mainline MEC to champion for stronger job-security and, hopefully, a better career for everyone.

When (If?) these pilots are recalled to mainline -- how do you want to be remembered? Do you want them to consider you to be the ALPA stepchildren who excluded them from decisions that would impact their careers? Or do you want them to remember you as a strong, professional, able pilot group who welcomed them -- and repay you for that by including you in mainline bargaining?

If I am recalled to the mainline, and elected to office as an LEC/MEC representative, how do you want me to remember you? How do you want me to act on your behalf? When I am in that MEC meeting discussing the fate of the wholly-owned pilots will you expect my allegiance?

You're at a crossroads. Yes, we've all been screwed. The question, very simply is, what do you intend to do now that you've got the furloughed pilots as a captive audience?

Something to think about. When the senior US Airways pilots retire and the furloughed pilots return ... who will control the mainline MEC? And what policy do you want them to adopt regarding the wholly-owned carriers?

This resolution is a mistake.

 

[Furloughedagain]

Just out of curiosity, what do you intend to do with US Airways furloughees who were hired by PSA prior to J4J?

Will you strip them of their rights as a union member as well?

What will you do with your...

... Chief pilot (furloughed US Airways)?

... Director of training (furloughed US Airways)?

... a few check airmen (furloughed US Airways)?

... a number of F/O's (furloughed US Airways)?

... AQP specialist (furloughed US Airways)?

I certainly hope that following your MEC elections the new officers will have a better understanding of ALPA bylaws. This resolution should've been squashed before it left the meeting.

 

[LavMan]

It is against the LMRDA and RLA to try and deny union members who pay full dues their right to vote and particpate, someone needs to contact the Department of Labor.

 

[DHC8Driver]

ALPA does a fine job dividing our nations airline pilots all by themselves. With the new, contractual single-seniority list (wholly-owned -> MDA -> US Airways) there is no reason for us to further expand that divide.

What happened to you is not fair. (jets4jobs, affiliate outsourcing, ALG, PDT...)

What happened to us is not fair. (min block hours, min captains, no-furlough...)

If you would welcome the furloughed pilots with open arms and help them to integrate into your pilot groups I believe you would have powerful allies to help you persuade ALPA national and the mainline MEC to champion for stronger job-security and, hopefully, a better career for everyone.

I think this furloughed again's post is a great post. all the points made are valid.

I agree that a member of a union has all the rights that union provides, regardless of how that member came to be in the union.
Jets for jobs, Mid Atlantic, concessionary contracts, it has all been executed so poorly and is such a textbook example of "how not to restructure a company", that everybody feels completely screwed.
I have to agree with the the fact that when Mainline furloughees go to PSA, it will be a chance for PSA to educate and allow Mainline pilots to see the other side of the story.
The average mainline pilot doesn't really know what is going on at the W/O's. I don't really expect them to. But a little "on the job training" of the plight of the W/O's might give them a different perspective.
With 3000 age 60 retirements over the next 12 years, the furloughed mainline pilots placed at PSA will be senior Mainline pilots in the future and you want them to remember you well and not with bitterness.