You Want to save your professions?

[AirwAr]

RV4,NewHampshireBlackBears, TimeToSayBuhBye, Hopeful, and all NO-voters

It appears to me that one of the main you reasons you and others voted no was to “saveâ€￾ your professions. You didn’t want to turn back the clock on gains that have been made over the years. When people are hired back, you want there to be a job worth coming back to. If you gave in now, it would spread to other airlines and possibly to other industries. The mechanics, for example, at other airlines would be forced into concessions to remain competitive. Then with the domino effect it would spread to other industries: auto mechanics, diesel mechanics, elevator mechanics, etc. Using your no vote, you are saying that you would rather see a reduction in capacity (translated into a reduction in jobs) rather than a loss of quality of life for those that are able to stay. So, your answer to saving your profession is voting down a contract that could save additional jobs and benefits as compared to what you may get in bankruptcy.

For management employees, if they feel they’re not getting paid well and are not happy about their jobs, they leave. They sometimes go to other jobs within the company, sometimes to other airlines, and a lot of times to other industries. I wouldn’t ask the employees with less seniority than me to give up 100% of their income, just so I can keep 100% of mine. Eventually the salaries will increase because the company will need to retain & obtain employees and the only way to do that is to have a competitive compensation package.

So my suggestion to you and all the NO-voters is, please LEAVE. Go be an elevator mechanic. Go someplace where you’ll be happy. Once you are settled into your new jobs, contact your friends that decided to take the cuts, and let them know what the good life is like on the outside.

 

[RV4]

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On 4/16/2003 3:27:32 PM AirwAr wrote:

RV4,NewHampshireBlackBears, TimeToSayBuhBye, Hopeful, and all NO-voters

It appears to me that one of the main you reasons you and others voted no was to “saveâ€￾ your professions. You didn’t want to turn back the clock on gains that have been made over the years. When people are hired back, you want there to be a job worth coming back to. If you gave in now, it would spread to other airlines and possibly to other industries. The mechanics, for example, at other airlines would be forced into concessions to remain competitive. Then with the domino effect it would spread to other industries: auto mechanics, diesel mechanics, elevator mechanics, etc. Using your no vote, you are saying that you would rather see a reduction in capacity (translated into a reduction in jobs) rather than a loss of quality of life for those that are able to stay. So, your answer to saving your profession is voting down a contract that could save additional jobs and benefits as compared to what you may get in bankruptcy.

For management employees, if they feel they’re not getting paid well and are not happy about their jobs, they leave. They sometimes go to other jobs within the company, sometimes to other airlines, and a lot of times to other industries. I wouldn’t ask the employees with less seniority than me to give up 100% of their income, just so I can keep 100% of mine. Eventually the salaries will increase because the company will need to retain & obtain employees and the only way to do that is to have a competitive compensation package.

So my suggestion to you and all the NO-voters is, please LEAVE. Go be an elevator mechanic. Go someplace where you’ll be happy. Once you are settled into your new jobs, contact your friends that decided to take the cuts, and let them know what the good life is like on the outside.


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Who died and left you in charge of others lives anyway?

BTW, I am working on another career. But not because of anyone in your camp.

 

[AirwAr]

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On 4/16/2003 3:42:30 PM RV4 wrote:

Who died and left you in charge of others lives anyway?

BTW, I am working on another career. But not because of anyone in your camp.

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I haven''t interfered in anyone else''s life anymore than you have. Your suggestion for saving a profession is to vote NO. My suggestion to saving a profession is to leave and be happy.

 

[WO/drone]

Although not a AA employee, I could not agree more. No one is forced to stay at any job, I am at my airline and took cuts and stayed because I want the industry to survive. The complainers seem to shout more than offer real solutions.

 

[Flyboy4u]

Thank You AirWar......I couldn''t have said it better myself.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/16/2003 3:27:32 PM AirwAr wrote:
So my suggestion to you and all the NO-voters is, please LEAVE. Go be an elevator mechanic. Go someplace where you’ll be happy. Once you are settled into your new jobs, contact your friends that decided to take the cuts, and let them know what the good life is like on the outside.
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Translation-Dont fight to make things better. Bend always to the will of management so that they may keep theirs. Let those of us to weak or feeble to change, wallow in self pity as we support on our backs a broken company.

 

[desertfox]

AIRwAr...BRAVO...Finally a voice of reason and sanity emerges from this Fellini movie cast that has been posting on here.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

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On 4/16/2003 3:49:33 PM AirwAr wrote:

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On 4/16/2003 3:42:30 PM RV4 wrote:

Who died and left you in charge of others lives anyway?

BTW, I am working on another career. But not because of anyone in your camp.

----------------​

I haven''t interfered in anyone else''s life anymore than you have. Your suggestion for saving a profession is to vote NO. My suggestion to saving a profession is to leave and be happy.

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AirwAr;
The only thing YOU know about being a "REAL" union person, is what you read in a dictionary.

NONE of the alternatives are pleasant,
BUT,
Even the SMARTEST and most HATED, (by the unions), CEO in the history of the industry,(BOB CRANDALL) knew ONLY to well that to fix a problem like this, you did''nt start threatining BK-11, you SHRUNK the airline, rebuilt it back up, and then went from there.
Ultimately ALL the names of the people, who you choose to bad mouth, are advocation what Crandall advocated, when he was faced with a similiar situation.

Thats what makes the a lot of APFA members so ADMIRABLE. They''re voting "NO", knowing that they will at least be laid off, and may never return.
BUT AT LEAST THEY DID"NT COMPROMISE THEIR "INTEGRITY and CONVICTION"

GOD BLESS APFA !!

NH/BB''s

 

[AirwAr]

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On 4/16/2003 519 PM FA Mikey wrote:
Translation-Dont fight to make things better. Bend always to the will of management so that they may keep theirs. Let those of us to weak or feeble to change, wallow in self pity as we support on our backs a broken company.

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What could possibly be better for you about pushing AA into bankruptcy sooner rather than later? Was the bankruptcy TA that much better than this TA that was just passed? Apparently not, since a majority of your union voted YES.

As for my "translation", I say teach management a lesson and leave. If enough of you go because the pastures are greener on the other side, the salaries of your groups will have to rise to get enough people to fill your jobs. Come on. Take one for the team. You and the other NO-voters were more than willing to layoff additional employees in an attempt to keep more of "YOURS".

 

[AC AA LA FA]

Since the beging of time in this industry,workers have had to fight for everything they have earned in their professions. This time around we had one hand tied behind our back-and were bullied. No one likes theway it feels-and yea we are pissed off and will be for a long time. Years of dedication to a company can not be walked away from by anyone who has an ounce of dignity, so we choose to fight for what we think is fair. I just wonder now, since the playing field has been has been so slanted-what tactcts will be resorted to,what attitudes will be able to be left at home while on the clock-will going to work ever be the same? I fear that we have lost a lot more than just pay and benefits I do hope i am wrong...........

 

[AirwAr]

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On 4/16/2003 4:46:36 PM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:


AirwAr;
The only thing YOU know about being a "REAL" union person, is what you read in a dictionary.

NONE of the alternatives are pleasant,
BUT,
Even the SMARTEST and most HATED, (by the unions), CEO in the history of the industry,(BOB CRANDALL) knew ONLY to well that to fix a problem like this, you did'nt start threatining BK-11, you SHRUNK the airline, rebuilt it back up, and then went from there.
Ultimately ALL the names of the people, who you choose to bad mouth, are advocation what Crandall advocated, when he was faced with a similiar situation.

Thats what makes the a lot of APFA members so ADMIRABLE. They're voting "NO", knowing that they will at least be laid off, and may never return.
BUT AT LEAST THEY DID"NT COMPROMISE THEIR "INTEGRITY and CONVICTION"

GOD BLESS APFA !!

NH/BB's

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You're right; I've never been a "real" union person. I have worked in areas where seniority is everything and I paid my dues, without complaint. Luckily I never worked with anyone like you.

If you believe that a NO vote demonstrates integrity and conviction, then why don't you practice what you preach? You're so willing to crawl on the backs of others. You want them to give up 100%, just so you can keep 100%. Why don’t you show us some of that integrity and conviction? Just leave. If you talk a bunch of your No-voter friends into leaving with you, then the company would have to give raises just to stop the mass exodus. Just think, people would be saying: “GOD BLESS NH/BB’s!!! “NH/BB’s SAVED OUR PROFESSIONâ€￾!!! “NH/BB’s doesn’t have a job, but s/he has Integrity and Convictionâ€￾!!!

 

[stewbear]

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On 4/16/2003 3:27:32 PM AirwAr wrote:

RV4,NewHampshireBlackBears, TimeToSayBuhBye, Hopeful, and all NO-voters

It appears to me that one of the main you reasons you and others voted no was to “save” your professions. You didn’t want to turn back the clock on gains that have been made over the years. When people are hired back, you want there to be a job worth coming back to. If you gave in now, it would spread to other airlines and possibly to other industries. The mechanics, for example, at other airlines would be forced into concessions to remain competitive. Then with the domino effect it would spread to other industries: auto mechanics, diesel mechanics, elevator mechanics, etc. Using your no vote, you are saying that you would rather see a reduction in capacity (translated into a reduction in jobs) rather than a loss of quality of life for those that are able to stay. So, your answer to saving your profession is voting down a contract that could save additional jobs and benefits as compared to what you may get in bankruptcy.

For management employees, if they feel they’re not getting paid well and are not happy about their jobs, they leave. They sometimes go to other jobs within the company, sometimes to other airlines, and a lot of times to other industries. I wouldn’t ask the employees with less seniority than me to give up 100% of their income, just so I can keep 100% of mine. Eventually the salaries will increase because the company will need to retain & obtain employees and the only way to do that is to have a competitive compensation package.

So my suggestion to you and all the NO-voters is, please LEAVE. Go be an elevator mechanic. Go someplace where you’ll be happy. Once you are settled into your new jobs, contact your friends that decided to take the cuts, and let them know what the good life is like on the outside.


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Your anger is apparent..we get it...you have no power so you leave..Goodbye...These work rules will be very hard to renegotiate because of people like you sitting on their very well cushioned chairs have no idea what it''s like working on a moving vessel for 14 hrs with a minimum overnight....just go away...you are not an airline person...just a bean counter.

 

[Hopeful]

AirWar:

Some of us have earned the right to vote NO and prefer layoffs to concessions. It''s company asswipes like yourself who are making airline careers worthless. Every other corporation that has been hit by the state of the economy has simply CUT JOBS! When the economy improves, people will be recalled and they will be recalled with full benefits and pay.

Maybe you have opted to BEND OVER AND TAKE IT but some of us rather not. We would rather perserve what we have gained over the years and hang on to the shred of self respect that we had prior to this debacle of an agreement.

You say you would never ask someone with less seniority to give up 100%.
Let me ask you something: How much are you willing to give up before you yourself say enough is enough?

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/16/2003 8:16:32 PM AirwAr wrote:

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On 4/16/2003 519 PM FA Mikey wrote:
Translation-Dont fight to make things better. Bend always to the will of management so that they may keep theirs. Let those of us to weak or feeble to change, wallow in self pity as we support on our backs a broken company.

----------------​

What could possibly be better for you about pushing AA into bankruptcy sooner rather than later? Was the bankruptcy TA that much better than this TA that was just passed? Apparently not, since a majority of your union voted YES.

As for my "translation", I say teach management a lesson and leave. If enough of you go because the pastures are greener on the other side, the salaries of your groups will have to rise to get enough people to fill your jobs. Come on. Take one for the team. You and the other NO-voters were more than willing to layoff additional employees in an attempt to keep more of "YOURS".

----------------​

A no vote would have brought our only chance at a true and fair negotiation with the company. Now we have been screwed in to cuts if valued at 420 million. When AA files for BK, any additional cuts will be from that point. A majority of my work group voted NO. When AA didn''t like the vote, it was extended for the company monkey business to begin.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 4/16/2003 3:44:50 PM WO/drone wrote:

Although not a AA employee, I could not agree more. No one is forced to stay at any job, I am at my airline and took cuts and stayed because I want the industry to survive. The complainers seem to shout more than offer real solutions.

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Drone is a proper name for you. A stingless bee that produces no honey and performs no work.
Lets say none of the employees at any airline accepted the blame for this industy's problems by accepting paycuts. What then? Would every Airline go out of business and cease operations? Wake up dummy!! The government would have been forced to intervene. As Bush told the UAL mechanics this is an essential industry and the country could not allow a strike to interupt commerce and isolate communities that rely on that service. So workers cant strike in one airline but they would sit and let three major carriers go out of business? "Oh but that would make those that are left healthier"? Yea but it would also reduce competition to the point that airfares would get so expensive that they would restrain the economy when it rebounds and many communites would never have service restored.

AirwAr;
The reason why we have Unions is so that we can try to balance the power that the companies have to set prices for labor. Without this balance the industry can set prices at the bare minimum. If we came to work and did the bare minimum you would claim that we have a poor work attitude and were being unfair to the company and its passengers. Why is it OK for a company to tell its workers that they are going to pay them the bare minimum that they can get away with but wrong for workers to have the same attitude towards the company? We chose this profession and there is nothing wrong morally or ethically with our attempt to get a fair value for what our labor is worth. In this profession mobility is limited by the effects of the loss of seniority because this is a 24 X 7 X 365 operation. If we are to stay, we must fight for what we deserve and not run away from or back down to every challenge the company presents.

We will not leave, yet. However if the company is going to pay less they should not expect to get the same. In our profession quality of work is not a variable. The variable is time, the extraordinary efforts that workers have been putting forth since the new contracts were put in place will likely start to wane, and with it performance. Why would workers put in the extra effort when if they work exactly the way the company tells them to, which will definately take more time, and be safer to them personally, they can make up for what they are losing in overtime? When these concessions are put in place each worker will need at least 8hrs of OT weekly to make up for their loss in pay and benifits. Why would they put forth the extra effort that they used to as part of the bargain that the company reneged on? Your answer would probably be something about "Professionalism". Our professionalism in the "Quality" of our work is not variable, however the effort or performance that we put into delivering that quality within less time than the job calls for is. There is nothing unprofessional about varying either quality or performance (depending on the nature of the business) in relation to the price. All Professionals do this, all businesses do this. You cant expect the performance of a Ferrari or the quality of a Rolls Royce for the price of a Chevy. Its similar to the concept that Coach passengers enjoy the same trip length and safety as First Class passengers. Why do they pay different rates? Because even though both are given essentaily the same product the airline puts in a little extra effort to make the First Class passengers trip more comfortable and enjoyable.