ALPA Executive Board to hear US Airways East MEC request

[767jetz]

Jim,

Save Dave from the west has zero pilots below him. If the list goes together he goes from zero to 1800 pilots under him. His relative position skyrockets at the east expense and he captures all attrition with no fences.

Maybe it would be helpful to think of the seniority number as currency. That currency (seniority number) has been adjusted for everyone, but should still buy you close to the same amount of job that your old number did. Therefore "Save Dave's" new number may be 1800 higher that before, but it still buys him the same most junior currently flying pilot on the list. The # 1800 guy still buys the first recall.

Your attrition analogy doesn't really hold water because the 1800 guys on furlough don't lose the attrition. They still move from furlough back to a job just as quickly as before. Actually faster because they also "capture" the attrition of the West pilots. ALPA merger policy states no windfalls " at the expense of others." You might say that Dave now has the advantage of attrition that he didn't have before, but he didn't get that at anyone's expense. The 1800 furloughed guys still have their attrition. Why should they come back ahead of a current line pilot? Just because they have 20 years at USAir?

Them being furloughed is a consequence of the situation USAir was in for many years, and their choice of employers. If those same pilots had gone to work at ANY other airline (except TWA) they would not be furloughed with 20 years of experience. That is something that all USAir pilots have to come to grips with. It is not something to be rectified by mergers at the expense of another, more fortunate company.

NO ONE in this industry will support that notion. And IMO ALPA will not be able to help you in this one. There isn't another ALPA pilot in the world who does not understand what the US East pilots are trying to do. Be happy you still have your relative position, and start focusing on repairing your contract and improving the pay and work rules. Otherwise USAirways will be toast.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

Save Dave from the west has zero pilots below him. If the list goes together he goes from zero to 1800 pilots under him. His relative position skyrockets at the east expense and he captures all attrition with no fences.

Doesn't answer the question I posed - exactly how much does the bidding power of a specific East pilot change if the award goes into effect? Which specific East pilot will be forced out of their job because of the award?

Anything else - the effect of attrition, etc, depends entirely on what the future holds and no one knows with absolute certainty what that will be. In 2000 could you have accurately predicted the future of US? Did you predict with absolute precision the two BK's, the loss of pay, pensions, benefits, etc? Who's got the crystal ball that guarantees that the attrition will make any difference - US could be out of business in 5 years or so successful that everyone on the list will be captains anyway.

Looking in from the outside, and understanding how the system works, it sure looks like all the anger is because the East pilots can't get not only the East and West attrition, but all the East and West advancement opportunities for years to come. They're mad because Save Dave will get his chance to advance more or less as he would have with no merger (i.e. dependent on what the future holds), demanding instead for the most junior East furloughee to get that chance before Save Dave moves at all.

Of course, the same applies all the way thru the list. East pilots can't get every captain vacancy on both sides for years to come - they was robbed, burn the place down.....

Jim

ps - it does bring a tear to my eye when I read about all the compassion for the poor furloughees. Especially from the same pilot group that voted for concession after concession, which insured that those poor furloughees would remain furloughed even longer. The angst over the plight of the poor MDA/MAA pilot is especially touching when coming from those who adamantly refused to recognize that they were active US pilots when at MDA/MAA. Of course, those furloughees are once again cannon fodder to be used in another attempt to get what that active group wants....

 

[john john]

You have to get members to sign cards for new representation,

What % do you need to file for a vote?

 

[safety stud]

What % do you need to file for a vote?

If Im not mistaken it's 50% of eligable voters + 1

 

[Junebug172]

Doesn't answer the question I posed - exactly how much does the bidding power of a specific East pilot change if the award goes into effect? Which specific East pilot will be forced out of their job because of the award?

Anything else - the effect of attrition, etc, depends entirely on what the future holds and no one knows with absolute certainty what that will be. In 2000 could you have accurately predicted the future of US? Did you predict with absolute precision the two BK's, the loss of pay, pensions, benefits, etc? Who's got the crystal ball that guarantees that the attrition will make any difference - US could be out of business in 5 years or so successful that everyone on the list will be captains anyway.

Looking in from the outside, and understanding how the system works, it sure looks like all the anger is because the East pilots can't get not only the East and West attrition, but all the East and West advancement opportunities for years to come. They're mad because Save Dave will get his chance to advance more or less as he would have with no merger (i.e. dependent on what the future holds), demanding instead for the most junior East furloughee to get that chance before Save Dave moves at all.

Of course, the same applies all the way thru the list. East pilots can't get every captain vacancy on both sides for years to come - they was robbed, burn the place down.....

Jim

ps - it does bring a tear to my eye when I read about all the compassion for the poor furloughees. Especially from the same pilot group that voted for concession after concession, which insured that those poor furloughees would remain furloughed even longer. The angst over the plight of the poor MDA/MAA pilot is especially touching when coming from those who adamantly refused to recognize that they were active US pilots when at MDA/MAA. Of course, those furloughees are once again cannon fodder to be used in another attempt to get what that active group wants....

Wow, I agree with an east guy!!!

 

[TBONEJ4J]

The list is set in stone. The east can delay, but the clock is ticking. The initial vacancies may go to the east while working under two CBAs, but once we have one CBA, the list kicks in and a majority of vacancies will go to the west pilots.

So you see it as a 'windfall' also. Well done, I commend your honesty.

 

[SoldWholeSale]

Doesn't answer the question I posed - exactly how much does the bidding power of a specific East pilot change if the award goes into effect? Which specific East pilot will be forced out of their job because of the award?

Anything else - the effect of attrition, etc, depends entirely on what the future holds and no one knows with absolute certainty what that will be. In 2000 could you have accurately predicted the future of US? Did you predict with absolute precision the two BK's, the loss of pay, pensions, benefits, etc? Who's got the crystal ball that guarantees that the attrition will make any difference - US could be out of business in 5 years or so successful that everyone on the list will be captains anyway.

Looking in from the outside, and understanding how the system works, it sure looks like all the anger is because the East pilots can't get not only the East and West attrition, but all the East and West advancement opportunities for years to come. They're mad because Save Dave will get his chance to advance more or less as he would have with no merger (i.e. dependent on what the future holds), demanding instead for the most junior East furloughee to get that chance before Save Dave moves at all.

Of course, the same applies all the way thru the list. East pilots can't get every captain vacancy on both sides for years to come - they was robbed, burn the place down.....

Jim

ps - it does bring a tear to my eye when I read about all the compassion for the poor furloughees. Especially from the same pilot group that voted for concession after concession, which insured that those poor furloughees would remain furloughed even longer. The angst over the plight of the poor MDA/MAA pilot is especially touching when coming from those who adamantly refused to recognize that they were active US pilots when at MDA/MAA. Of course, those furloughees are once again cannon fodder to be used in another attempt to get what that active group wants....

--The US/East pilot immediately JUNIOR to the very last US/West pilot on the combined seniority list, was just awarded an Embraer 190 Captain position.... That would mean that not only did the West guys gain international flying, but since the snapshot was taken, a third of the top 500 listed are either out the door, or on the way out. The West group gained wide bodies, and now if all that weren't enough, EVERY West pilot on the list down to the very most junior, could have held a Captain seat in the last East bid.... Some how things just don't add up.

I do agree in regard to the AAA groups intentions in regard to the mighty self. I am former MDA, and can say without any hesitation that 99.9% of them had no interest one way or the other what happened to us. However, now that the MDA suit is on its way to court, and it can be proven without a doubt, (smoking gun-with finger prints and a witness) that the MDA pilots were in fact active USAirways/AAA, they love us because that could be the fly in the ointment if the arbitrator wrongly factored in, or didn't factor in 300 pilots in varying seniority from the last class hired in 2000, to the most senior pilot who for any length of time had been furloughed.

I have no faith in the system to work, or in ALPA to have any integrity. Were I a West pilot, I would sure as heck be fighting to keep things the way they are as well, what a deal! In regard to the pilot neutrals, I think the UAL pilot probably knew he was going to be dragged under the merger bus as well, and when his time came, didn't want to have to contend with DOH either.

My 2 Cents,

SH

With 5 years LOS, and 8 years since my DOH, I would be better off in every way at SWA... Thats not ideal, but when being represented by ALPA, and having always been soldwholesale by the upper end of the seniority list, who would shoot a cowboy in the back for his canteen on a hot day, the outcome wasn't a total shock. Not saying I agree, as the arbitrator hosed the bottom 3,000 in the East in the worst possible way, but its always been that way when you deal with people like the BOS F/O rep, and the CLT F/O rep, who would sell their mother for one spot on the seniority list.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Try some pepto, in the meantime I'll get you some extra toilet paper for that diarrhea - what a putz!

We'll see what happens after the EVP meeting, and then I'm going to rip you a new one with all the quotes of yours I saved.

Later SFB

JuneBug,

That is interesting because I heard the opposite from our EVP. In regard to delaying it, the US Airways pilots have the right to delay it for at least 3 years until their contract is amendable, then enter into Section VI negotiations, mediation, then a 30-day cooling off period, and a strike. In the case of the AWA pilots it took 4 years past the amendable date of their last contract to get a new agreement.

If that occurs with the US Airways pilots it would be at least 7 years before any list could go together.

Meanwhile, the US Airways pilots would have a lower cost contract than the AWA pilots and where do you think any growth flying would go, to the high cost operator or the low cost operator?

In the meantime the AWA pilots will have to enter into Section VI negotiations on their own and if the pilots strike, how many US Airways East pilots do you believe would cross your picket line to break the strike? From what I am hearing almost all of the East pilots.

Furthermore, the process has started to decertify ALPA on the East property and then impose a new union on the AWA pilots. Can you stop this? No, you cannot.

In the meantime the US Airways pilots have recalled 386 pilots this year, it is receiving all of the EMB-190s, all of the transatlantic growth, it has over 2,500 pilots retiring in the next 10 years, and the AWA pilots have about 500 retirements in the next 10 years.

This will permit US Airways pilots to have improved schedules, quality of life, and pay raises when reserves become lineholders, F/O's become Captains (again), and narrowbody pilots become widebody pilots, all providing meaningful pay raises.

What do the AWA pilots get? Nothing, until they negotiate their own contract, which could take another 4 years. Even then they do not get upward movement because of no growth on the West side and much less retirements than the East.

As I have indicated there is a way out of this mess and that is to protect each others flying by having permanent fences around East and West Coast bases. Would that be agreeable to you?

Regards,

USA320Pilot
s

 

[BoeingBoy]

--The US/East pilot immediately JUNIOR to the very last US/West pilot on the combined seniority list, was just awarded an Embraer 190 Captain position

Dean got a 190 Capt bid, huh - good for him.

That would mean that not only did the West guys gain international flying

Only after the 4 year fence on widebodies comes down (or not enough East pilots bid them to fill all the vacancies)

a third of the top 500 listed are either out the door, or on the way out.

In other words, the East has already gotten the benefit of that attrition and can't be bumped due to no bump/no flush.

The West group gained wide bodies

See above.

EVERY West pilot on the list down to the very most junior, could have held a Captain seat in the last East bid

As could almost every active East pilot if Dean could. The others, or at least some - blame the East MEC for the way they handled the MDA/MAA issue. That's who caused that cluster####. The arbitrator and West folks didn't have a thing to do with it.

The rest - couldn't agree more. What happened with the MDA/MAA folks was a travesty. I know it's small consolation, but those who did that to you and the others are paying at least a tiny price for their stupidity with this award. They were told that having you guys/gals on the active list would be a benefit during the merger talks and chose to not only ignore it but actively dispute it.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

In regard to the pilot neutrals, I think the UAL pilot probably knew he was going to be dragged under the merger bus as well, and when his time came, didn't want to have to contend with DOH either.

Not just UAL, but DAL, NWA, CAL, and ALK.

 

[USA320Pilot]

B767jetz,

B767jetz said: "Otherwise USAirways will be toast."

USA320Pilot comments: Even with US Airways' problems the company posted one the largest Q1 profits in the industry. How did United do? It had the largest loss in the industry and was about $150 million or a loss about $1.66 million per day. Hummm?

Speaking of United, did you see the column in today's Chicago Tribune. Click here for the story.

With Glenn Tilton trying to peddle the company it will be interesting to see how the United-Continental or United-US Airways Arbitration Seniority List Arbitration moves ahead, if US Airways remains in ALPA.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[A320 Driver]

Only after the 4 year fence on widebodies comes down (or not enough East pilots bid them to fill all the vacancies)

Jim

Jim,

The arbitator protected only enough slots to crew the widebodies, NOT the pilots actually flying them. So if you are a Widebody Captain (not one of the 517)and are displaced for whatever reason, you have no protection. Only the "First tier" pilots are protected and as they retire that protection retires with them. So, in a sense, the West most certainly did gain widebodies.

A320 Driver B)

 

[700IAM]

In the Pittsburgh Post Gazette article about how the U pilots got the royal shaft it said: "Absolutely infuriated." What an understatement!

Like TWA and American did to the IAM, now this. No wonder people run away from union representation when after years of dues and hard work this is the reward.

I truly feel for the pilots, this is not right not even close to being right. It seems morons are in the position of power these days like that twisted arbitrator. I am not even employed there anymore and was only a mechanic but this kind of action makes my blood boil because it’s absolutely wrong wrong wrong.

You people should and NEED to take drastic steps to rectify this insanity. They are throwing a drastic ruling in your face and telling you, tough SH--It. If men where men, the kind that brought about unions to begin with then by God ever Pilot should be sick and stay home until sanity is returned. If you pilots accept this without even flinching then IMO you deserve the crap they’re shoving down your throats. If you don’t fight back on this one unions will become a joke in history class and every corporate board room.

 

[prechilill]

If you don’t fight back on this one unions will become a joke in history class and every corporate board room.

The USAir East pilots gained in relative seniority.
The America West pilots lost relative seniority.

A stapler, regardless of how you choose to describe it, is still a stapler.
Seniority on both sides was (relatively) preserved.

 

[A320 Driver]

The USAir East pilots gained in relative seniority.
The America West pilots lost relative seniority.

A stapler, regardless of how you choose to describe it, is still a stapler.
Seniority on both sides was (relatively) preserved.

Since the West had NO widebody flying, you have to take those slots out and also those for non-flying pilots before you do the math to come up with relative seniority. I you do that, then you are then comparing "apples and apples" and you will find that no one moved up or down in relative seniority (the people actually on the property 1-1-07).
This is basically what the Piedmont pilot group wanted in 1989 and were shot down by Kagel (arbitrator).

A320 Driver B)