AMFA stations

[Overspeed]

Here you go again the iam had already agreed to outsource the DC-10 and 747 before the AMFA had gotten on the property. There were no limits on the amount that could be outsourced until the 2001 contract that the twu piggybacked off of. I still remember joe hasen telling everybody at AFW that we would be lucky to get $29 hr at the end of the contract. Can you believe it we recieved over $35 hr at the end along with 12 sick days only because the men and women at NWA fought for it. The AMFA did not allow the o/s of o/h at UAL. It was your fellow afl-cio union the iam as you already know since it has been proven here many times. Nothinng like repeating a lie over and over to make become truth.
As far as o/s for AA. It is 35% of total maintenance spend,along with the little disclaimer that if we don't have the ability to do the work they can o/s it. When jim ream was here at AFW he said that the 767 were going to Tulsa and if they could not produce (set up to fail) AA would outsource that work also and that AA could o/s up to 65%. Oh lets not forget that they already have some of the 767s outsourced. Guess what I was informed last week that management had told the planners to put together a bill of work package for RO of 767 out of Tulsa. As far as DWH goes it might be called an o/h base,but that is far from what it is. Not one dock at DWH has any docking system in it,but you already know that and you were being your usual self and trying to mislead the people here.

Yawn.

If the TWU language was so weak as you claim then why has AA continued to insource more than out/ The TWU contract that's why. Why has UA, CO, NW, AS, WN, and US outsourced so much? The IBT, IAM, and AMFA contracts that's why.

True the IAM let some work go but AMFA and the IBT let the remainder go. How many docks are running now in SFO, OAK, and IND? Yeah, one? Two? Damn that's awesome AMFA and the IBT. You rock!

I'll give AMFA the win in 2001 with NWA on pay rates. They cratered the careers of how many members a few years later? Over 15,000 or 80% of their membership gone. Big win...not.

The outsourcing language you refer to has to do with work where AA does not currently own facilities and it does not make sense to invest in infrastructure. Paint shops or engines where where AA will have a small amount of work. All that work is included in the 35% number brother. Peak work can be outsourced up to the 35% plain and simple. Under the AMFA and IBT contracts almost all AO gets outsourced. That is thousands of jobs but I guess that's AMFA and IBT unionism, give up your brothers and sisters jobs so an ever shrinking group can get a few dollars more. Nothing like paying dues to an organization that is willing to give up your job.

You don't need docking structures to do an overhaul. Just ask look in the hangar at Aeroman where Southwest has their overhauls done in El Salvador. You know the place. It's where Southwest now does airframe overhauls because AMFA "fought" to get that work done in the U.S. for $45/hour. Great job AMFA! You guys rock!

 

[Overspeed]

Dont we pay Unions dues for unions to fight against unfair laws that put us at a disadvantage? What has the TWU done to combat this law other than roll over and make sure that AA gets everything they want?



But at what cost?
Before you make such statements you have to remember that for most of us our Final Average salary is not in the six figure range like International employees, its around $68000.

9years x $68,000x.01667=$10,202.04 a year at 65 years of age (the age we will have to work now that retiree medical is gone.

Given that Aircraft Mechanics work with toxic chemicals they have higher rates of cancer thus lower life expectancies than most other people in the US so we can maybe expect that to be worth a total of 10 years collecting a pension, so its worth $102,020.40. So we got a total of $102k added to our pensions.

Every legacy carrier that lost their DB got something in place of that. UAL got $40k plus the 5.5% match. The company figures that 12% of all ours worked are at OT rates, so they figure we work 250 hours of OT a year, since the match is based on gross our Final Average salary for the 401k would be roughly $75k x 5.5%=$4125

So less the 401 K match the Pension is worth $6077 year



$4125 x 9 years=$37125(without interest), But of course there would be some interest over a 20 year period, lets be real conservative and say we got enough interest to bring that up to $52,000 by the time we are 65 (not counting subsequent contributions outside the 9 year window.

So now the added years to the pension are only worth $50,000, but we gave up 80 hours a year of Holiday pay as well’

80 x $33 =$2640x 9 years =$23760 But in reality we are still losing those holidays that others kept through BK till 2018 so we need to add that as well, that’s another $15840 so the lost Holidays will cost us $39,600

So now the added 9 years to the pension is only worth $10,400

We get a week’s less vacation that has already cost us $13,320, and by 2018 it will be up to around $19,920 (based on $33/hr)

So without counting all the other concessions, slashed wages, double time, straight time for training, sick time etc we already more than paid for the extra 9 years by giving concessions that our peers never gave, even through BK (concessions we continue to give as well). If the average worker has to put in 20 years of concessions before he retires the extra $6k a year he will net before taxes at 65 (offset by the 401K contribution) will have cost him around $80,000 just in Holidays and Vacation. In excess of $200k all in.




“Number two in pay”, more spin. Don’t you mean number two in hourly pay rates if we selectively include and exclude premiums?? Holidays, vacation, sick time, Health Benefits etc are all part of pay and we were at the bottom in all those categories. Plus the number two status would have only applied to those line mechanics who started between 9 pm and 4 am. In other words the company could have simply altered the start times (to 2059)and nobody would have been receiving the number two rate you speak of. You claim adds in ALL POSSIBLE premiums under the AA deal but does not do the same with the other agreements. In other words, it’s a lie. Our hourly base chart rate still would have been bottom of the industry.

Just as most guys at UAL do not get the $2/hr COLA most mechanics at AA would not have recieved the $1.50 MRT or the $2.55 Line premium. The company still could have 24 hour coverage without any mechanic at AA being in your words "#2".







Well I really wasnt fighting Brundage, because I had to get past Videtich first. Its a tough fight when the people who are supposed to be on your side are collecting perks and fighting for the other side, but at least now everybody knows.

My position on BK is that whatever we did did not matter, there wasnt enough savings available in M&R to warrant going through BK. Don was saying that we could push them in. BK revolved around one contract-the Pilots.



Well as I just pointed out the fight was never brought to the company so we will never know, we had to fight Don and the International, it’s a shame that we have to fight the people we pay to represent us, that fight continues, but it may soon be over. Then maybe we can start fighting the company.

Bob none of these made up facts worked in any BK hearing. Keep "fighting" though.

The law is written to favor the creditors and the employees always get the bone. Blame the AFL-CIO unions but that isn't fixing anything. We are still getting screwed and in the final analysis of our negotiating team's performance of which you were a representative, we have what we have now. You all need to blame yourselves as the fact you repeatedly claim the system is rigged. If you knew that and still told all of us we were going to get more than you my brother are the fool. You got played.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Simple question, does UA or NW have their airframe overhaul in-house? No. BK or no BK AMFA was on duty and the work is gone. AMFA did such an awesome job that DL wanted nothing to do with the powerful craft union. The IBT made matters worse at UA when they lost the OSV grievance and then made the failure permanent by removing the reference to a cap on outsourcing.

The IBT has added no new language to either the UA or CO agreements to cap outsourcing at any level. So much for Teamster Power.

What did the TWU do? Better than AMFA, IBT, and the IAM by restricting outsourcing to 35% of maintenance expenses excluding overhead. Throw stones but we have over 30 docks in TUL and DWH performing airframe overhaul. How many docks are doing overhaul at UA? CO? WN? DL? US? AA has around 600 aircraft and so does DL and the combined UA/CO but they don't even have half the airframe overhaul docks that employ thousands of union employees making far more than the non-union workers in El Salvador, China, Korea, and U.S. MROs.

Apparently you idolize the AMFA and IBT model on scope clauses. The ones that let thousands of jobs go so that the remaining 50% can get a few dollars more.

And if AMFA is so good why have they not forced the most profitable airline in the U.S. to pay their AMTs more than anyone? AS turned a $339M profit for such a little company off of about $4.5B in revenue. AS can afford it and AMFA has done what? Nothing.

And if all those other unions "fought" the BK battle before us and paved the way then you agree that the best avenue for TWU members at AA was not to repeat their mistakes and risk abrogation. Thank you for pointing out that the TWU hired experts were right.

And after you finished all of the above bullshit you still can not explain why the twu international officers are appointed and not elected by the membership... pathetic!

Go AMFA!

 

[swamt]

And number one and two in outsourcing

Wrong again. I,ll let you figure out who's number and two. How bout no lay-offs, ever, and AMFA is bringing in more maint than any other union has ever done in the 40+ yrs of existence.

 

[737823]

You are a proven common liar.

We (AMFA) put a limit on it where there was none.

I worked for NWA during those times and the IAM outsourced the work then scabbed our work when we went on strike.

There is no need for anyone to even read or respond to anything you post here since you have been proven over an over to be a liar.

Glenn,
700 keeps insisting that the IAM didn't scab AMFA and rather performed ancillary duties that NWA added to the IAM CBA. Is this correct or did the IAM scab and help NWA bust AMFA?

Josh

 

[swamt]

Yawn.

If the TWU language was so weak as you claim then why has AA continued to insource more than out/ The TWU contract that's why. Why has UA, CO, NW, AS, WN, and US outsourced so much? The IBT, IAM, and AMFA contracts that's why.

True the IAM let some work go but AMFA and the IBT let the remainder go. How many docks are running now in SFO, OAK, and IND? Yeah, one? Two? Damn that's awesome AMFA and the IBT. You rock!

I'll give AMFA the win in 2001 with NWA on pay rates. They cratered the careers of how many members a few years later? Over 15,000 or 80% of their membership gone. Big win...not.

The outsourcing language you refer to has to do with work where AA does not currently own facilities and it does not make sense to invest in infrastructure. Paint shops or engines where where AA will have a small amount of work. All that work is included in the 35% number brother. Peak work can be outsourced up to the 35% plain and simple. Under the AMFA and IBT contracts almost all AO gets outsourced. That is thousands of jobs but I guess that's AMFA and IBT unionism, give up your brothers and sisters jobs so an ever shrinking group can get a few dollars more. Nothing like paying dues to an organization that is willing to give up your job.

You don't need docking structures to do an overhaul. Just ask look in the hangar at Aeroman where Southwest has their overhauls done in El Salvador. You know the place. It's where Southwest now does airframe overhauls because AMFA "fought" to get that work done in the U.S. for $45/hour. Great job AMFA! You guys rock!

Wrong again. It was the teamsters that allowed all the outsourcing. Not AMFA chief. The rest of your post I won't even get into, not worth my time, besides everyone on here knows you like to repeat lie after lie. Keep posting, as you continue to help the AMFA drive thru-out the industry.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

True the IAM let some work go but AMFA and the IBT let the remainder go. How many docks are running now in SFO, OAK, and IND? Yeah, one? Two? Damn that's awesome AMFA and the IBT. You rock!

Some interesting reading concerning SFO, OAK, and IND......

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-0305060269may06,0,3516394.story

just a few of the more interesting pieces......


""...Continuing its painful downsizing, United Airlines announced Monday that it is permanently closing its heavy maintenance bases in Indianapolis and Oakland...""


""...As part of a new six-year contract with its 12,000 mechanics, United now has the flexibility to outsource all of its heavy maintenance work, ...""


""...On Friday, United filed a motion with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Chicago to reject its leases on the Indianapolis and Oakland facilities. The Indianapolis base officially will close Friday, although virtually everyone already is gone, Nunnally said. The Oakland facility, with 600 union workers and 300 salaried and management employees, is scheduled to close May 31....""



All very interesting but perhaps the best part of the whole article is the date ........""...May 6, 2003...""

AMFA wasn't certified on UAL until July of 2003

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2003/30n063.pdf

Spin it anyway you like, you're a LIAR.

 

[swamt]

Some interesting reading concerning SFO, OAK, and IND......

http://www.chicagotr...0,3516394.story

just a few of the more interesting pieces......


""...Continuing its painful downsizing, United Airlines announced Monday that it is permanently closing its heavy maintenance bases in Indianapolis and Oakland...""


""...As part of a new six-year contract with its 12,000 mechanics, United now has the flexibility to outsource all of its heavy maintenance work, ...""


""...On Friday, United filed a motion with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Chicago to reject its leases on the Indianapolis and Oakland facilities. The Indianapolis base officially will close Friday, although virtually everyone already is gone, Nunnally said. The Oakland facility, with 600 union workers and 300 salaried and management employees, is scheduled to close May 31....""



All very interesting but perhaps the best part of the whole article is the date ........""...May 6, 2003...""

AMFA wasn't certified on UAL until July of 2003

http://www.nmb.gov/r...2003/30n063.pdf

Spin it anyway you like, you're a LIAR.

You are correct sir. AMFA was not certified at the time the farm was givin away by the IAM. I wish more people would do their own research instead of just believing what they read on these forums. The IAM sold out their members just months before AMFA was voted in. If you ask me the IAM saw the writing on the wall just like the very current sitsuation at AA and the TWU. The TWU is seeing the writing on the wall, and they are giving away the farm back to the company before they too are voted (fired) out of AA. It's all a matter of time folks, not if. The AA mechanics better hope they have AMFA representing them before and during the integration proccess. If they are still TWU, I foresee the US guys doing way better than the AA guys. Watch and learn folks... To be continued.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yawn.

If the TWU language was so weak as you claim then why has AA continued to insource more than out/ The TWU contract that's why.

Bottom of the Industry wages, benefits and workrules to be more specific. The question is are those reasons why you wopuld want to belong to a union?

I'll give AMFA the win in 2001 with NWA on pay rates. They cratered the careers of how many members a few years later? Over 15,000 or 80% of their membership gone. Big win...not.

Revisionist history, you leave out the fact that two years prior to the NW strike we rolled over and gave away 25% of our compensation on just the threat of BK. That cratered not only our careers but everyone elses as carriers that went into BK could cite that the largest carrier in the industry had the lowest average hourly rates for maintenance labor.

The outsourcing language you refer to has to do with work where AA does not currently own facilities and it does not make sense to invest in infrastructure. Paint shops or engines where where AA will have a small amount of work. All that work is included in the 35% number brother. Peak work can be outsourced up to the 35% plain and simple. Under the AMFA and IBT contracts almost all AO gets outsourced. That is thousands of jobs but I guess that's AMFA and IBT unionism, give up your brothers and sisters jobs so an ever shrinking group can get a few dollars more. Nothing like paying dues to an organization that is willing to give up your job.

There is no cap on AO outsourcing at AA either and you know it.

You don't need docking structures to do an overhaul. Just ask look in the hangar at Aeroman where Southwest has their overhauls done in El Salvador. You know the place. It's where Southwest now does airframe overhauls because AMFA "fought" to get that work done in the U.S. for $45/hour. Great job AMFA! You guys rock!

Where are our 777s currently going?

Are there any restrictions as far as where AA outsources?

Whats stopping AA from sending the 767s out as well?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob none of these made up facts worked in any BK hearing. Keep "fighting" though.

The law is written to favor the creditors and the employees always get the bone. Blame the AFL-CIO unions but that isn't fixing anything. We are still getting screwed and in the final analysis of our negotiating team's performance of which you were a representative, we have what we have now. You all need to blame yourselves as the fact you repeatedly claim the system is rigged. If you knew that and still told all of us we were going to get more than you my brother are the fool. You got played.

Employees are creditors.

In other words the ATD will simply roll over and not fight because they can simply blame the law, they wont do anything to change the law but they will tell us how we need to contribute to COPE so they can make laws more worker friendly. So what exactly will they be looking to change with our COPE dollars? Lets see, reporting requirements, to make it harder for members to see what Unions are doing with their money is always on the top of their list, then there was changing the NMB rules as far as representation elections, faulty as they were the old rules allowed this to become, and reamin, one of the most heavily unionized industries out there, in fact their failure rate has not improved with the new rules.

Yes the rules are rigged, but Unions were formed to fight against rigged rules. Yes we did get played, by Jim Little and the ATD when they said they were going to "fight like hell". Well, where's the fight?? They didnt lose a penny, got between $2 million and $5 million for their troubles, even froze the pension instead of terminating it so you boys would still get your AA pension based on the wages reported by the Union.

 

[Bob Owens]

And number one and two in outsourcing

So who do you think people would rather work for, the employer who pays the best or the one who employs the most?

Do people join unions to maximize pay and benefits or to try and make sure the company continues to hire more people (to pay more dues)?

 

[Bob Owens]

Okay. Say what you will but bottom line, how many AMTs worked at NWA after the strike? Good move AMFA. Good move.

How many TWU represented AMTS work at Pan Am?

Great job TWU?

They convinced their workers to accept concession after concession as the company used the extra time to raid their pensions.

Bottom line, the concessions cost Pan Am workers thousands of dollars and delayed their restart at other carriers compounding the loss. EAL workers fared much better.

 

[767 mechanic]

Yawn.

If the TWU language was so weak as you claim then why has AA continued to insource more than out/ The TWU contract that's why. Why has UA, CO, NW, AS, WN, and US outsourced so much? The IBT, IAM, and AMFA contracts that's why.

True the IAM let some work go but AMFA and the IBT let the remainder go. How many docks are running now in SFO, OAK, and IND? Yeah, one? Two? Damn that's awesome AMFA and the IBT. You rock!

I'll give AMFA the win in 2001 with NWA on pay rates. They cratered the careers of how many members a few years later? Over 15,000 or 80% of their membership gone. Big win...not.

The outsourcing language you refer to has to do with work where AA does not currently own facilities and it does not make sense to invest in infrastructure. Paint shops or engines where where AA will have a small amount of work. All that work is included in the 35% number brother. Peak work can be outsourced up to the 35% plain and simple. Under the AMFA and IBT contracts almost all AO gets outsourced. That is thousands of jobs but I guess that's AMFA and IBT unionism, give up your brothers and sisters jobs so an ever shrinking group can get a few dollars more. Nothing like paying dues to an organization that is willing to give up your job.

You don't need docking structures to do an overhaul. Just ask look in the hangar at Aeroman where Southwest has their overhauls done in El Salvador. You know the place. It's where Southwest now does airframe overhauls because AMFA "fought" to get that work done in the U.S. for $45/hour. Great job AMFA! You guys rock!

The question should be how many docks are going to be left in the next 2 or 3 years. You never denied the fact that aa is outsourcing some of the 767s and that they are planning to outsource the rest of the 767s.
You are correct as far as not needing docks to do o/h. In order to be efficeint at wide body o/h(not to mention being safe)you need docks. The fact of the matter is that DWH is called an o/h base and you are claiming it to be an o/h base,but there is nothing but line maintenance being done there. The only thing that can be remotely called o/h is a pylon mod on a 767. I know you will avoid this due to your inability to spin this.
Here in true overspin fashion you are trying to spin the #s on the AMFA membership again. You never want to admit that the AMFA membership had no choice but to strike or lose 53% of the membership. If you will notice I said the membership chose to strike and not AMFA national. If they would have acted in true twu fashion and capitulated you would have tried to spin this and say they were weak.
Well I see that you finally admit that aa can outsource up to 65% maintenance spend. All aa has to do is make sure that they don't have the facilities,tooling or manpower to do the work.(Can you say layoff). Oh by the way I'm not your brother. A brother of mine would not lie to or stab the membership in the back for there own gain.
The twus form of unionism is to lower the wages and benefits as long as they keep the dues coming in. Kind of like 4.3% base pay increase and not increasing any of our benefits and giving profit sharing back to the company. So as far as outsourcing work goes were is the language in the twu contract that speaks to outsourcing work to other countries? The last thing I heard was that the 777s were going to China,but I guess I could have misunderstood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT

 

[Kev3188]

Tulsa IS dying anyway. How many in Tulsa really wants to work either 4/10's during the week or 3/13's on the weekends?

I obviously can't speak for TUL, but I know lots of people that would jump on 4/10's or 3/13's in a heartbeat. Here at DL, they got rid of 3/13's in MX, and there was quite an outcry.

Burdette only said that we would work any plane that AA flies, but not that we would do all the work.

Another reason why language- and people that know how to correctly craft it- is key.

In all likelihood, he probably really thought that statement was all encompassing. meanwhile, I'm willing to bet the company couldn't believe their good fortune.

There was an arbitration hearing with AMFA cleaners at NW, where at first blush the language looked good, but was amazingly exploitable. If you read the transcript, you can also feel the glee the company reps had as they bulldozed right through it.

Okay. Say what you will but bottom line, how many AMTs worked at NWA after the strike?

Ones that could, you know, actually fix things? I'm gonna guess about 75. Maybe.

Ones whose skill set consisted solely of being able to apply MEL stickers? The rest.

 

[Bob Owens]

Another reason why language- and people that know how to correctly craft it- is key.

In all likelihood, he probably really thought that statement was all encompassing. meanwhile, I'm willing to bet the company couldn't believe their good fortune.

I was there, he was avoiding a fairly direct question with an indirect response and Don did not push him on it. I took it as him saying that we would do the line maintenance but would not committ on OH.