Battle Line Is Drawn

The Ronin

Senior
Sep 17, 2002
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United ALPA Statement on Pilot Pension Plans
Monday August 9, 12:08 pm ET

CHICAGO, Aug. 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Captain Mark Bathurst, Chairman of the United Pilots Master Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association, released the following statement regarding pilot pensions at United:

A number of news media outlets have reported that United Airlines will seek to terminate all employee pension plans, including the pilot pension plan, as part of its program to exit bankruptcy. The pilots of United Airlines have the following message for the Company, the media and the financial markets: we will use every resource at our command and every legal means available to prevent the Company from destroying the pilot pension program.

We recognize United's continuing need to reduce operating costs, given the current dramatic rise in the price of fuel. However, the Company's 9,000 pilots have already made huge concessions to provide United with over $6 billion in financial relief over the next five years. Over the last 18 months, the average pilot has forfeited 45% of his or her pay and 20% of his or her pension benefits, as well as endured a 15% increase in work hours. We made these enormous financial and lifestyle sacrifices to help the airline move toward profitability and to protect our pensions. We will not further sacrifice our futures -- and our families' futures -- as well.

The facts are now clear: United's labor costs are now among the lowest in the network airline industry, but its non-labor operating expenses remain among the highest. Outside of labor and fuel costs, American Airlines enjoys a full 25% operating cost advantage over United. United's maintenance and airport operations are substantially less efficient than its industry peers; its aircraft leases remain well above market; its relationship with United Express carriers is unprofitable and unstable; and United fails to manage revenue as well as American, Continental or Northwest. Any corporate management team can attack employee pensions. That is the "simple" way to generate a large sum of cash. We are asking this management team for two things: accountability, and to begin steps toward executing a solid, rational, and achievable business plan that does not attempt to solve its problems on the backs of its employees.

United's pilots have acquiesced to massive pay cuts and much longer working hours: huge concessions that made it possible for this great airline to remain viable throughout an extraordinarily difficult period. Terminating pilot pensions has the potential to destroy the career of every United pilot, and potentially plunge labor relations at United into years of hostility and chaos. We will do everything in our power to avoid that scenario. The pilots of United Airlines will fight for our pensions every bit as hard as we have fought to ensure that United emerges from bankruptcy as the best airline in the world.
 
My crystal ball prediction: The sabres will rattle for a couple of months, and in the end everybody gets hosed. :down:
 
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However, the Company's 9,000 pilots
We went from 13000 members to just over 5000.
United's maintenance and airport operations are substantially less efficient than its industry peers
Now who is truely the driver to decimate ALL other work groups except themselves. As I said at the union meeting today, given the events at UAL, NWA and Delta, no other single entity has done more to damage the industry and lives of so many people. They disregard all except themselves. Now they publicly apply pressure on management to scourge all work groups to whatever means it takes to insure their livelyhood and futures. The enitre hall couldn't be calmed down. We must take these guys down. I would rather lose all of it than have this type of dominion held over me. This airline does NOT belong to them, our lives are not theirs to decide. We shall see in the end what their degrees and as busdrvr clams "IQ' takes them. "Cry Havoc...and let slip the dogs of War" :up:
 
Wow I cant believe they mention us as being the problem. If one group loses the pension, all groups should lose it. Its only fair...
 
I hope that something gets worked out. Pensions were taken at US and I believe UA is looking at the same. My heart goes out to the employees.
 
I saw the statement earlier - at first look I did not take it as an indictment of mechanics, but just pointing out that other cost areas need to be addressed too. From your perspective, I can understand how you might take it as a jab, but I do not think it was ALPA's intent but a careless oversight instead.

I have seen some other analysis of DOT Form 41 data that shows UA maintenance costs as still much higher than its legacy competitors. Not sure why this is. Any insights here?
 
UAL is in a no-win situation. They can’t obtain financing to get out of bankruptcy unless they dump the pension plans but they won’t keep the employees on their side if they do terminate the plans. Sadly, UAL is taking the approach of looking almost entirely to employees to fix the balance sheet problem – if for no other reason than because every other item on the balance sheet is pretty well defended in the bankruptcy process.

The lesson for AMR, DAL, NWA, and CAL could not be clearer: if you reach the point where you have to beg for someone to bail you out, you have lost control and will alienate the employees you desperately need to provide the service which you deliver. UA has delivered very good service for several years but unless there is a major turn of events away from the course everyone expects, UA will return to the labor-management destructive behavior that brought this airline to where it now stands (or kneels).
 
What I am concerned about is that if UAL tries to get out of the pension plan it will set a precedence for the other airlines to do the same thing. I don't think the Fed's will allow that to happen and may in some way make UAL disolve.

By the way Tilton does have a large pension already funded, and what has he done to deserve it?
 
I believe you are exactly right, UAFA21. The PBGC will fight UAL's attempts to terminate their pensions tooth and nail and drag things out as long as they legally can. It is very likely that Congress will get involved; if Congress was brought to bear to put pressure on UAL re: retiree medical benefits, you can bet they'll have something to say about pensions.

The sad reality is that the longer UAL takes to resolve the pension issue, the longer it takes UAL to get back on its feet and competing. The PBGC is probably willing to make an example of UAL in order to prevent them from dumping their pensions unless UAL ceases to operate. The best thing UAL could do is accept responsibility for the pension obligation and design a business plan that includes keeping the pension plans. Unfortunately, UAL will probably continue to expect everyone else to fix its problems - a stance that could well be part of the death sentence for UAL - although there are plenty of people who do not want to admit or hear of the severity of the this situation in determining UAL's future.
 
The Ronin said:
We went from 13000 members to just over 5000.

Now who is truely the driver to decimate ALL other work groups except themselves. As I said at the union meeting today, given the events at UAL, NWA and Delta, no other single entity has done more to damage the industry and lives of so many people. They disregard all except themselves. Now they publicly apply pressure on management to scourge all work groups to whatever means it takes to insure their livelyhood and futures. The enitre hall couldn't be calmed down. We must take these guys down. I would rather lose all of it than have this type of dominion held over me. This airline does NOT belong to them, our lives are not theirs to decide. We shall see in the end what their degrees and as busdrvr clams "IQ' takes them. "Cry Havoc...and let slip the dogs of War" :up:
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Ronin:

As you can see, I rarely post on this message board. I have less than 20 posts in several years. But, I do read these messages every day. From what I have read, I gather you are a very knowledgable and competent mechanic who has been around the block a few times. You are a passionate individual when it comes to this industry and your profession. Its guys like you I want working on our aircraft. With that said, I can also see you have a deep hatred for anything and anyone wearing a pair of United pilot wings. I want to comment on a few things you mentioned above.

First, you quoted the "9,000 pilots" number. Pre 9/11, we had 10,700 pilots on the property. We now have less than 7,000. The 9,000 number was rounded and included all the furloughed guys who have given 100% of their salary and benefits to the cause. The remainder of the reductions came from mandatory age 60 retirements and early outs from medical license losses and early retirements. While I realize the mechanics have been hit hard on the downsizing, I wanted you to know our ranks were cut 37%. Not a small number as you seemed to imply. I am one of these laid off pilots.

Your second paragraph is down right scarey. While you say a lot of inflamatory things, this is one of the worst yet to date. I can't believe you are this upset about ALPA trying to defend their pensions. Didn't Canale boycott a board meeting and file a lawsuit against some company officers? We issue a press release stating our opposition to them taking our retirements as well and you start saying "We must take these guys down." What would you see as a viable solution? For ALPA to say, "Gee, take whatever you want." ALPA's quote about UAL's maintenance and airport operation efficiencies was not a slam against you and your fine mechanics, it was a generalization that UAL spends more money on a lot of things like A/C leases, the UAL Express operations, and some aspects of the mainenance division. Heck, you yourself rants all the time about all the f*cked up things going on over there. ALPA was not attacking the mechanic labor costs. I repeat, ALPA was NOT attacking the mechanics salaries or benefits or anything dealing with compensation. They were only trying to state that there are other places to improve UAL's expenses in all division around the system. At the top of ALPA's statement, they say that labor costs ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!!!! They are trying to pressure UAL to look elswhere to find the money, instead of taking more from you and me.

If ALPA succeeds in defending a large portion of their retirement benefits, every other work group will likely be given similar treatment. Are you really naive enough to think they the BK judge or any other company officer would come out and say, GOSH, ya know what, ALPA can keep everything and everyone else gets nothing. Our management is stupid, but not THAT stupid.

Until now, Ronin, I have enjoyed your posts. They are always lively. But this last one really showed how completely freaky you are. I can only imagine the poisonous gossip and inflamatory rant you spread amongst your fellow employees. That's ashame.

We must take these guys down? I would rather lose all of it? No other single entity has done more damage to the industry? They disregard all except themselves? The driver to decimate all other workgroups?

Holy cow, Ronin. Are you serious?
 
BigRed1-

You're wasting your breath trying to reason with guys like him. Just let him post his babble because it probably makes him feel better. It's good therapy to write about your irrational anger vs. acting it out.

Repeat this to yourself Ronin while taking deep cleansing breaths........The pilots are not out to get me. They are my friends. The pilots are not out to get me. They are my friends. Visualize a beautiful green meadow with yellow flowers and big white puffy clouds. Deep breaths. The pilots are not out to get me. They are my friends. I am a pilot, Ronin. I wish you nor your pension plan any harm. I come in peace. Puffy white clouds. The pilots are not out to get me. They are my friends........
 
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United's maintenance and airport operations are substantially less efficient than its industry peers;
Ok...granted, I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed. BUT I CAN READ!!!!
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what ALPA is implying here. Put any spin on it you want, this WAS a direct shot at other work groups, particularly MINE!!! And while others may stick their head in the sand, or hope the bully just goes away with only their lunch money, I'm going to point to the sky and say "look at the birdie"...and when he does, I'm going to kick him in the balls and beat his MFing ass. We are losing just about everything, working as hard as we can to keep this ship upright, still gettting lay off notices and haranged by management daily, and then YOU guys push this sh*t out. I say enough is enough. You think it's only me and UAL mechs that feel this way? I talk to my buddies next door at AMR and down at the terminal with DAL etc. We are all in agreement about how ridiculas the airlines are in regards to their pilots to the detriment of so many other people who make an airline a airline. And when I see a USAir pilot bash a CSR to take another cut from his $13/hr job, or watch DAL pilots making pre 9/11 wages while everyone else is PAYING their wages with paycuts or what UAL pilots did to my own airline....I think you can understand how I and many others feel about airline pilots. :shock:
 
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