MetalMover
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http://amrcaseinfo.com/hearings.phpJABORD said:
Company Match of Prefunding Refund
- Thread starter JABORD
- Start date
Rosen's language is the same as the language the company used when they stole the funds in the Supplimental Medical plan. That was where employees paid out of pocket for decades so when they retire they would have$300,000 instead of $50,000 coverage. The company claimed it was a term policy. The company said that "they " weren't getting the $80 million or so because it could not go into the General fund, that those funds from the members pockets had to be used to pay for Medical benefits, which would otherwise come from the company's General fund. So in reality it had the same net affect , even better because its not revenue which could end up being taxed. So to say that AA does not benefit from this is false, because the $80 million from the plan left an extra $80 million in the General Fund for them to do whatever they want with.
What's significant in Rosen's 2011 otherwise deliberately ambiguous letter is where he says '
One further comment,,,.
The fact that the Union agreed to terminate the plan, give us our contributions back, and a year later still no word on the company match makes it that much more likely that we will never see those funds. For some of our coworkers that completely cancels out the Equity.
What's significant in Rosen's 2011 otherwise deliberately ambiguous letter is where he says '
One further comment,,,.
The fact that the Union agreed to terminate the plan, give us our contributions back, and a year later still no word on the company match makes it that much more likely that we will never see those funds. For some of our coworkers that completely cancels out the Equity.
Sorry but I say it as I see it. I was very much against the whole deal but since everyone knew the company would be able to terminate funding the plan in BK I said let them do it that way and leave the language intact so as not to open the door for them to take our match. When people willingly follow the likes of Little and his crew, who never saw a concession they did not like, as long as they didn't have to live under the deals they put in place, then we end up where we are.
The best way to fight it may be to make the company believe that to do otherwise may end up costing them more than anything they would gain, that the little bump in income would have more value than sending morale down even more than it is, if that's possible. Sometimes morale gets so bad that instead of hopelessness and apathy it leads to outright rebellion. We may be near that point again.
As I've said before I hope I'm wrong, but it seems that the worst case scenarios always end up being the scenario around here. I never expected things would ever be this bad, even the Equity leaves us far short of what our peers at UAL got in BK. Guys I've spoken to ended up with $40k coming out of BK, we got $20K in equity.
The best way to fight it may be to make the company believe that to do otherwise may end up costing them more than anything they would gain, that the little bump in income would have more value than sending morale down even more than it is, if that's possible. Sometimes morale gets so bad that instead of hopelessness and apathy it leads to outright rebellion. We may be near that point again.
As I've said before I hope I'm wrong, but it seems that the worst case scenarios always end up being the scenario around here. I never expected things would ever be this bad, even the Equity leaves us far short of what our peers at UAL got in BK. Guys I've spoken to ended up with $40k coming out of BK, we got $20K in equity.
MetalMover
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Just remember the wording...."Upon the SUCCESSFUL outcome of the 1114.AANOTOK said:
enough already
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It must've been successful. Horton got his 17 million, didn't he?MetalMover said:
MetalMover
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I was referring to the company match refund of our prefunding.enough already said:
Guess what, you are no longer a participant, not since you got your contributions back. Have you ever read the trust agreement?
Under the trust agreement, any participant could opt out at any time and receive his contributions plus interest, but the company kept the match. So right now the match lies with the language that's dependent on whatever the definition of "successful" is.
Who represents active employees on the 1114 Committee?
We left our funds in the hands of people who would benefit by keeping our money, that goes for both AA and the retirees. AA gets to look like a good guy for keeping the benefits going (till our money runs out) and not give the retirees any equity, and the retirees get coverage for longer than they would have.
Sure its all speculation, and I hope I'm wrong and it doesn't go down this way, but I see it as a possibility and its why I was against even addressing it in the contract, at any rate we should not have agreed to introduce such vague language. It should have been left simple, the plan will be terminated and active employees will receive both contributions and matching funds.
Under the trust agreement, any participant could opt out at any time and receive his contributions plus interest, but the company kept the match. So right now the match lies with the language that's dependent on whatever the definition of "successful" is.
Who represents active employees on the 1114 Committee?
We left our funds in the hands of people who would benefit by keeping our money, that goes for both AA and the retirees. AA gets to look like a good guy for keeping the benefits going (till our money runs out) and not give the retirees any equity, and the retirees get coverage for longer than they would have.
Sure its all speculation, and I hope I'm wrong and it doesn't go down this way, but I see it as a possibility and its why I was against even addressing it in the contract, at any rate we should not have agreed to introduce such vague language. It should have been left simple, the plan will be terminated and active employees will receive both contributions and matching funds.
Also remember the TWU told us all we would be getting that money back. Now they don't want to talk about it. It was a deal between Little and the company. Shows you who Little was looking out for doesn't it? I'm surprised he isn't getting $17 million. He is more responsible for saving AA all those labor costs than Whoreton is.
NYer
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Because everyone is so pre-disposed to creating conspiracy theories for everything this whole issue has gained quite a bit of steam.
However, the issue on the Retiree Medical is about the Creditors not being willing to deal with a claim of Equity brought about by the Retiree's in the event their coverage is terminated. It is cheaper to continue the coverage until the Equity is distributed and avoid a claim althogether.
The Retiree Medical issue is not resolved and it remains the jurisdiction of the Bankruptcy Court in the form of an Adversarial Proceeding, with the Reitree retaining their right to lay a claim against any Equity.
12.1 Dissolution of Committees: "Following the Effective Date, the Retiree Committee shall continue to have standing and a right to be heard solely with respect to (i) applications for compensation by professionals and requests for allowance of Administrative Expenses for substantial contribution pursuant to section 503(b)(3)(D) of the Bankruptcy Code, (ii) any adversary proceedings and any appeals (including appeals of the Confirmation Order that remain pending as of the Effective Date) to which the Retiree Committee is a party, (iii) any proofs of Claim filed by the Retiree Committee until such time as the allowance or disallowance of such proofs of Claim have been finally determined, including any appeals from an order allowing or disallowing such proofs of Claim, and (iv) any other matter related to the foregoing or involving the Retiree Committee’s rights or duties under section 1114 of the Bankruptcy Code. The Retiree Committee shall remain in existence after the Effective Date and shall not dissolve until the completion of the foregoing post-Effective Date activities..."
However, the issue on the Retiree Medical is about the Creditors not being willing to deal with a claim of Equity brought about by the Retiree's in the event their coverage is terminated. It is cheaper to continue the coverage until the Equity is distributed and avoid a claim althogether.
The Retiree Medical issue is not resolved and it remains the jurisdiction of the Bankruptcy Court in the form of an Adversarial Proceeding, with the Reitree retaining their right to lay a claim against any Equity.
ARTICLE XII. (POR)
MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS
MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS
12.1 Dissolution of Committees: "Following the Effective Date, the Retiree Committee shall continue to have standing and a right to be heard solely with respect to (i) applications for compensation by professionals and requests for allowance of Administrative Expenses for substantial contribution pursuant to section 503(b)(3)(D) of the Bankruptcy Code, (ii) any adversary proceedings and any appeals (including appeals of the Confirmation Order that remain pending as of the Effective Date) to which the Retiree Committee is a party, (iii) any proofs of Claim filed by the Retiree Committee until such time as the allowance or disallowance of such proofs of Claim have been finally determined, including any appeals from an order allowing or disallowing such proofs of Claim, and (iv) any other matter related to the foregoing or involving the Retiree Committee’s rights or duties under section 1114 of the Bankruptcy Code. The Retiree Committee shall remain in existence after the Effective Date and shall not dissolve until the completion of the foregoing post-Effective Date activities..."
