Delta to end pilot pension plan

[Fly]

I spin nothing…

I almost spit the coffee on the keyboard. You crack me up!

Perhaps you underestimate the BK process but it takes months to come up with the financing and write a POR.

and to think, you made such a fuss when UAL was going through it. Guess what? Until they emerge, they haven't. So don't count them chickens...yada, yada, yada.

DL will have moved through its bankruptcy in about 18 months which is very much on the fast track compared with other airlines, esp. if DL remains independent and performs at the top of the industry. There are precious few airlines that have been through BK just one time and ended up as a leader in the industry. If DL can do that, and indications are very strong that they will, they will have accomplished something few if any other airlines have done.

You're a laugh a minute. So now it's a prudent, well thought out decision to go through bankruptcy? If I remember correctly, bankruptcy isn't a choice, it's what happens when crap management meets bad economy.......well, it WAS until DL hit the bk skid, if people were to listen to you. (I don't think many do anymore, so no harm done.)

Here's my suggestion to you, WT. Don't ever tell a DL pilot who you are unless you want him to boot you off his plane. I've never seen someone so excited to watch pilots lose their earned pensions. The pilots, more than any other group, are getting majorly screwed (especially the retired ones, those just a year or two shy of last year's early retirement, and the ones who lived with blinders on and didn't jump for the lump sum last year). You see WT, to you aviation is just a little hobby on the internet, to them...it's their lives.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Oh, don’t damage your keyboard. Then you wouldn’t be able to regale us…

I have never said BK is good or that it isn’t a failure of management. I’ve also said that I respect AA’s ability to adapt to the changes in the industry and stay out of BK.

That said, DL fought like all get out to stay out of BK. As oil prices rose and their credit card processors demanded holdbacks, it was apparent DL couldn’t stay out. However, DL went in and has done its job in BK better and faster than any other airline before it and has obviously done it so it doesn’t need to be repeated. That is a notable accomplishment and something you certainly can’t say about UA.

Oh, don’t damage your keyboard. Then you wouldn’t be able to regale us…

I have never said BK is good or that it isn’t a failure of management. I’ve also said that I respect AA’s ability to adapt to the changes in the industry and stay out of BK.

That said, DL fought like all get out to stay out of BK. As oil prices rose and their credit card processors demanded holdbacks, it was apparent DL couldn’t stay out. However, DL went in and has done its job in BK better and faster than any other airline before it and has obviously done it so it doesn’t need to be repeated. That is a notable accomplishment and something you certainly can’t say about UA.

DL’s pilots are getting more recovery than any other pilot group that has seen its pensions turned over to the PBGC. They also make more than NW, UA, or US’ pilots in base salary. I take no pleasure in anyone losing anything but let’s not forget that DL’s pilots were the highest compensated by a wide margin for several years and even now are still in the top half when all compensation is considered.

There are also an aweful lot of DL pilots that believed ALPA played delay games too long with management. As I’ve said before, ultimately management writes the paychecks. Unions can delay cuts but ultimately there are no examples of mgmt at any company paying more than they want to pay labor on a sustained basis.

Most DL pilots realize they could have faced a far worse fate than they are.

The greatest compensation any company can give its employees is a promising future and right now DL's looks far better than alot of other US airlines. Haven't seen any warnings about fall revenue or traffic from DL like we have from alot of other airlines... maybe DL's not experiencing shortcomings.....

 

[Fly]

Oh seeer of things that haven't happened. What are next week's lottery numbers?

I know the numbers of last quarter when Ual made more $$ than Dal, but this time I need to win the lottery. Please help.

 

[UALDC767]

DL will have moved through its bankruptcy in about 18 months which is very much on the fast track compared with other airlines, esp. if DL remains independent and performs at the top of the industry. There are precious few airlines that have been through BK just one time and ended up as a leader in the industry. If DL can do that, and indications are very strong that they will, they will have accomplished something few if any other airlines have done.

WT

You have your beliefs just as we all do, thats fine, but one thing that has bugged me about your posts is the constant "Delta does BK better than anyone else" you always toss in comparing Delta's trip versus UAL/US/Aloha/Hawaiian/ATA....

The timing/state of the industry is dramatically different between UAL's and Delta's stay in BK. So its hard to substantiate your belief of Delta is doing it better than the others. The end result is all that matters be it a three year BK or a 1 month one. As long as the company survives and exits.

Ticket prices have finally begun to rise to offset the increased fuel cost, and the passenger demand is at an all time high, and also Delta (while in BK) hasn't had to deal with outside negatives like SARS and the start of the Iraqi war#2, in addition to being sidetracked with the ATSB process (a UAL management fault no doubt, but one that didn't allow for the restructuring to go forward. Think of UAL's 3 year stay as split into pre and post ATSB) which severly decimated the revenue picture.

I believe that you can't directly compare the BK of UAL/Delta/others as each has its own pros/cons. Could UAL have done more? sure. And I am sure once Delta exits, some will lament that Delta didn't do enough either.

DC

 

[WorldTraveler]

of course nothing is exactly comparable in the airline industry. But despite your incessant trashing of DL while UA was in bankruptcy, DL was able to stay out of bankruptcy until they could reorganize successfully by learning from other's mistakes and in an environment that makes their restructuring much more successful. Timing is everything in life and DL's ability to wait until the end of the industy restructuring cycle which also coincides with a significantly strong market for the industry as a whole.

Let me reiterate one thing - I have nothing against any of UA's people because I don't believe UA's rank and file employees have any control of UA's destiny on a large scale. I do slight UA management and have for quite some time. It is inconceivable that UA was once considered to have the world's best route system and yet can't seem to make it work now. You should be mad as you know what at UA mgmt and its board for allowing UA to continue to die the death of 1000 cuts. This is the time to turn your company around. If DL can do it from the position they were in, UA can certaintly do it.

And I don't necessarily think that UA is the only airline's mgmt that needs a kick in the pants. Perhaps you've read that CO, FL, and B6 have all said that they are struggling in the aftermath of the British terrorist attacks. Yet based on traffic reports, DL and NW have been able to keep people onboard and paying decent fares. CO and B6 thrived in NYC and FL in ATL because DL was sick and not operating in the best interests of its long-term health. Now that DL is back and becoming a fierce competitor again, is it any surprise that FL, B6, and CO are all not doing quite as well as they previously did and were expecting to do now?

 

[hp_fa]

Deleted

 

[WorldTraveler]

HP FA,
The reason I have not responded to the Comair post is because it was an accident and could easily have happened to any airline. The NTSB will find fault and the appropriate actions will result to those entities involved.

I don't generally post about operational issues for any airline.

I'm far more interested in the business side.

 

[UALDC767]

of course nothing is exactly comparable in the airline industry. But despite your incessant trashing of DL while UA was in bankruptcy, DL was able to stay out of bankruptcy until they could reorganize successfully by learning from other's mistakes and in an environment that makes their restructuring much more successful. Timing is everything in life and DL's ability to wait until the end of the industy restructuring cycle which also coincides with a significantly strong market for the industry as a whole.

WT,

I dare you to show where I have ever trashed Delta, wheres the proof? because there isnt any! Hell, I hardly ever post here to begin with. So my incessant trashings is just a figment of your imagination.

I have never spoken/written an ill word about another airline....an individual poster (everyones favorite USAir pilot) maybe, but never another airline. And I don't wish for any airline to go under. (ok i will admit I had no desire to see Indy Air stay afloat- but that wasnt because of the employees)

SO you admit that Delta is using the path/techniques of others before it in BK to do theirs....hmmmmmmm.....and i am sure Delta said "wait, wait...ok, now is a good time to go into BK" me thinks they went in because they had to, not because the timing was right.

DC

 

[superG]

WT,

They went into BK because the pilots were retiring in droves with their lump sum payouts.....

 

[WorldTraveler]

You better believe DL knew there was value in waiting to file bankruptcyc until later in the cycle; it was precisely because of that reason that DL continued to draw down its previous industry leading credit rating in order to stay out of BK.

DL's credit card processing contracts came up for renewal just weeks before DL filed for BK. DL had disclosed years before that could be a significant event and it was because they collectively demanded a $1 billion holdback (DL had no credit card holdbacks prior to a year ago which was rare in the airlinen industry and another reflection of its previous excellent credit rating) which essentially meant that DL had no revenue coming in for almost a month. When coupled with all-time high fuel prices, DL had no choice but to file but they ended up doing it tied for last during this business cycle w/ NW. Both NW and DL are restructuring better than the carriers that preceded them so its obvious they benefitted from waiting and learning from others.

The pilot issue was critical but it didn't push DL into BK. DL had enough retired pilots coming back to fly the 767s that DL was able to fly its schedule. The only thing the mass retirements did was ensure that the pension plan would ultimately be terminated. Since DL had supplemental pension payments coming out of corporate funds, there was a drain on corporate cash but it was alot less than the credit card holdbacks or the soaring fuel prices.