DL adopts Saudi "No-Jew" Policy

[eolesen]

Other US airlines do not provide the ability to verify documentation for international traverlers using Timatic or other resources; DL provides it to minimize the number of passengers who book their own tickets yet are not aware of the travel requirements for each country.

Wrong. Flat out, dead in your tracks wrong. So wrong there's really not a hair you can split here on the issue....

Alaska and Continental sites have web Timatic directly embedded in them, and even lowly USAirways and snarky/smutty Spirit have links to web Timatic....

http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/help/faqs/traveldocuments.aspx
http://www.continental.com/web/en-US/apps/travel/passport/default.aspx

http://www.usairways.com/en-US/traveltools/specialneeds/ticketingpolicies/international.html
http://www.spirit.com/Policiesreqs.aspx#International

Heck, both the oneworld and Star Alliance sites incorporate web Timatic.

Both American and United's sites choose to reference the US Department of State, which is admittedly an extremely poor resource for non-US citizens going to a third country.

The requirements have nothing to do with the Jewish faith. It has to do with the nationality of the passport holder. Jews with a passport other than from Israel and who have no visas or entry/exit stamps from Israel are not affected.

I don't know how anyone who attended ANY institution of higher knowledge could try and say this has nothing to do with faith.... Israel exists *because* of faith.

A colleague of mine in the IT field recently attended a project review with a customer based in the Middle East... they were discussing the lack of programmer resources needed to accelerate development on a project at the customer's request, and after being told it would be difficult to do, the customer representative said "I'll even let a Jew work on it"

Saudi Arabia visa applications (http://www.traveldocs.com/sa/visa2.pdf) and landing cards require you to state their religion. If you put Jewish on your visa application and landing card, you might not get the visa or be admitted. If you lie about it, that's between you and your God for denying your religion... Some people simply say non-Muslim, and that suffices.

That's reality in that part of the world. Anyone who tries to whitewash it as a squabble between nations isn't being entirely truthful. That's the official position, but.....

 

[700UW]

More

Wrong again WT, take off the DL colored glasses and stop drinking the DL punch.

U.S. Jews Not Able To Fly On Delta Flights To Saudi Arabia


JERUSALEM (RNS) Jews and Israelis, or passengers carrying any non-Islamic article of faith, will not be able to fly code-share flights from the U.S. to Saudi Arabia under Delta Air Line's new partnership with Saudi Arabian Airlines that is set to begin in 2012.

 

[dapoes]

More

Wrong again WT, take off the DL colored glasses and stop drinking the DL punch.

You really are that embarrassingly ignorant it appears and haven't been paying any attention at all.

If you actually think that Delta is anti Jewish and participating in any overt discrimination then you are either a liar or just ignorant. Or both.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Wrong. Flat out, dead in your tracks wrong. So wrong there's really not a hair you can split here on the issue....

Alaska and Continental sites have web Timatic directly embedded in them, and even lowly USAirways and snarky/smutty Spirit have links to web Timatic....

http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/help/faqs/traveldocuments.aspx
http://www.continental.com/web/en-US/apps/travel/passport/default.aspx

http://www.usairways.com/en-US/traveltools/specialneeds/ticketingpolicies/international.html
http://www.spirit.com/Policiesreqs.aspx#International

Heck, both the oneworld and Star Alliance sites incorporate web Timatic.

Both American and United's sites choose to reference the US Department of State, which is admittedly an extremely poor resource for non-US citizens going to a third country.

I didn't say EVERY other airline, now did I?
I said that other airlines choose not to provide the resources for passengers to determine their own documentation requirements.
It's a basic comprehension of English.
It is also understanding that the information is not about Delta but about the laws of each country - and that the information is simply presented by DELTA to its passengers.
.
You will also note that the same travel documentation request on CO's website produces the following response:

/ 24JUN11 / 1730 UTC
National Israel (IL) /Embarkation USA (US)
Destination Saudi Arabia (SA)

Saudi Arabia (SA)


Admission and Transit Restrictions:
- The government of Saudi Arabia refuses admission and transit
to nationals of Israel.

Visa required.

Additional Information:
- Muslim female passengers must be: For details, click here
Warning:
- Visitors holding passports containing any Israeli visa or
stamp could be refused entry.
- Visitors not holding return/onward tickets could be refused
entry.



Saudi Arabia (SA)

Vaccination against Yellow Fever required if arriving within 6
days after leaving or transiting countries with infected (SEE
NOTE 11460) areas.
NOTE 11460: Infected areas in Sudan are south of latitude
15 degrees. Certificate from local Sudanese health
authorities is required, indicating that passengers have not
visited these infected areas during the last 6 days prior to
departure.

Exempt from Yellow Fever vaccination:
- Those not leaving the airport in the infected countries
concerned.
- Transit passengers not leaving the airport.
Warning:
- Persons without valid Yellow Fever vaccination certificate -
if required - will be vaccinated upon arrival and are
subject to quarantine.
- Vaccination for Meningitis required for:
- Hajis and Umrah passengers (SEE NOTE 24666).
NOTE 24666: The date of vaccination should be not more
than 3 years and not less than 10 days from the date of
arrival in Saudi Arabia. Passenger not holding Meningitis
vaccination certificate, if required, will be vaccinated
upon arrival or quarantined.
- All passengers coming on their flights during Haj Season
should present a valid vaccination certificate against
seasonal flu.
Recommended:
- Malaria prophylaxis. Malaria risk - mainly in the malignant
(P. falciparum) form - exists throughout the year in most of
the Southern Region (except in the high-altitude areas of
Asir Province) and in certain rural areas of the Western
Region. No risk in Mecca or Medina cities.
Chloroquine-resistant P. falciparum reported. Recommended
prevention in risk areas: IV.
- Pilgrims are strongly advised to be vaccinated against human
influenza, particularly those with medical conditions,
susceptible to medical complications, particularly the
elderly.

CHECK TINEWS/N1 - IRELAND (REP. OF): SHORT STAY VISA WAIVER
PROGRAMME



Timaticweb Version 1.3
24 June 2011

...
what do you know if it doesn't contain the exact same warning and language about Israels nationals AS WELL AS to any one else who might have an Israeli visa in their passport, regardless of the country of issue.

So, thank you Eric for showing all of us that the requirement is not Delta's but is instead based on information from the IATA which CO and DL - as well as other airlines - provide but which other airlines choose not to provide.

I don't know how anyone who attended ANY institution of higher knowledge could try and say this has nothing to do with faith.... Israel exists *because* of faith.

A colleague of mine in the IT field recently attended a project review with a customer based in the Middle East... they were discussing the lack of programmer resources needed to accelerate development on a project at the customer's request, and after being told it would be difficult to do, the customer representative said "I'll even let a Jew work on it"

Saudi Arabia visa applications (http://www.traveldocs.com/sa/visa2.pdf) and landing cards require you to state their religion. If you put Jewish on your visa application and landing card, you might not get the visa or be admitted. If you lie about it, that's between you and your God for denying your religion... Some people simply say non-Muslim, and that suffices.

That's reality in that part of the world. Anyone who tries to whitewash it as a squabble between nations isn't being entirely truthful. That's the official position, but.....

There is no membership card that proves that one belongs to any religion - or whether you have one at all.
The only piece of data that SA or any other country can actually enforce is the nationality of the passport you carry. Israel IS a Jewish state but it doesn't mean that everyone who has an Israeli passport is a Jew; it also does not mean that if you have any other passport, you are not a Jew.
And even if you are a Jew, no one knows unless you reveal that information - or they do an ancestry search.
.
Eric, unfortunately, you and others have tried to jump into an issue which isn't really Delta specific at all.. but you have tried to make it DL specific.. and in the process you demonstrate that you don't understand the difference between religion and nationality - or at the least that you are so fast to jump on the keyboard that you don't think through what you write.
Either way, you who claim to be an industry expert and international traveler demonstrated confusion about simple concepts that are part of both international travel and the airline industry.

Maybe someday you'll slow down, think, and learn. Maybe.

More

Wrong again WT, take off the DL colored glasses and stop drinking the DL punch.

You really are that embarrassingly ignorant it appears and haven't been paying any attention at all.

If you actually think that Delta is anti Jewish and participating in any overt discrimination then you are either a liar or just ignorant. Or both.

All the evidence says BOTH.

 

[eolesen]

I didn't say EVERY other airline, now did I?
I said that other airlines choose not to provide the resources for passengers to determine their own documentation requirements.

You said "Other US airlines do not provide the ability to verify documentation for international traverlers using Timatic or other resources. DL provides it to minimize the number of passengers who book their own tickets yet are not aware of the travel requirements for each country."

Back to splitting hairs?...

Four airlines listed provide Timatic. AA, HA, F9 and UA all provide links to the US DOS website.

The only airline (singular) not providing a link to travel doc requirements is WN, and they have no need for it.

So, which "other US airlines do not provide the ability" to their customers?....

It is also understanding that the information is not about Delta but about the laws of each country - and that the information is simply presented by DELTA to its passengers.

No kidding.... that's why I said:

"To be fair, it's not either of the airlines' fault that the country has those requirements. "
and
"Again, to be fair, any carrier in any alliance would have to apply the same policy."

Are you only capable of getting a point via a three-part sermon? Are the bullet points not clear enough?

Eric, unfortunately, you and others have tried to jump into an issue which isn't really Delta specific at all.. but you have tried to make it DL specific.. and in the process you demonstrate that you don't understand the difference between religion and nationality - or at the least that you are so fast to jump on the keyboard that you don't think through what you write.

Right. Apparently you didn't read anything other than what you wanted to, because I've said twice that it was not DL.

I'll repeat that again:

"To be fair, it's not either of the airlines' fault that the country has those requirements. "
and
"Again, to be fair, any carrier in any alliance would have to apply the same policy."


Everything I've written with regard to the discrimination has been about Saudi policy. Not the airline. The monarchy.

Either way, you who claim to be an industry expert and international traveler demonstrated confusion about simple concepts that are part of both international travel and the airline industry.

Maybe someday you'll slow down, think, and learn. Maybe.

(deleted by moderator)

 

[700UW]

Guess WT and Dapoes cant read that it also said non-islamic religious items will be confiscated also, so its a broad stroke.

 

[dapoes]

Story

Hey toolboy, you maybe should have researched it a bit further before shooting off your mouth again. Your link references a recent WND article...from an earlier WND article in February 27, 2004: TROUBLED KINGDOM Saudi tourism: No Jews please, Islamic nation opens to holiday travelers, but not all

 

[dapoes]

Blame Saudi Arabia, not Delta, for Policy on Jews

There have been so many stories running around websites accusing Delta Air Lines of banning Jews from flights to Saudi Arabia that it’s worth clarifying: it’s Saudi Arabia that restricts entry by Jews into its country, not the airline.

Saudi Arabia requires a visa for most foreigners entering its country, and the kingdom denies visas to people who a stamp in their passport from Israel. (When applying for a visa, you send in your passport.) Many believe the strict Islamic nation routinely denies visas to people it believes are Jewish. The Saudi visa application asks you to state your religion.

Without a visa, no airline can board a passenger for a flight to that country. Anytime you fly internationally, your documents get checked by the airline before you board. If a visa is required and you don’t have one, the airline can’t fly you there only to have you sent back.

Delta is entering into a partnership with Saudi Arabian Airlines through its SkyTeam Alliance, beginning next year. Delta planes don’t actually fly there, but Delta customers will be riding on Saudi Arabian through an interline agreement. (They already do that today through a standard interline agreement.) Delta says it won’t code-share with Saudi Arabian — place its flight code on Saudi flights– and won’t offer reciprical frequent flier benefits. Like any airline, Delta can’t board Saudi-bound passengers without a visa.

It would be the same on Lufthansa or British Airways or Air France flights to Riyadh, or for that matter on their U.S. code-sharing partners–United, US Airways or American. Without a visa, American won’t board you for a flight to London if your ticket connects you to Saudi Arabia. In terms of airline policy, there’s nothing new.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The following link on DL's website doesn't help matters:

http://www.timaticweb.com/cgi-bin/tim_website_client.cgi?SpecData=1&VISA=&page=visa&NA=IL&AR=00&PASSTYPES=PASS&DE=SA&user=DL&subuser=DELTAB2C


To be fair, it's not either of the airlines' fault that the country has those requirements.

of course it's not Delta's fault....
so if it isn't DL's fault, then why did you rush to say that the link doesn't help matters.
Does it help matters any less that OTHER airlines use Timatic and quote the same information?
And by your own admission AA and UA don't offer the same information. So does it make any more or less of ANY airlines" fault that if you use AA or UA, you have to go to a US government website that doesn't provide much information?
.
You rushed to diss Delta and you had to backtrack because in fact the information you quoted is not at all specific to DL.
.

 

[eolesen]

Maybe it is time to move this article to the Water Cooler, since it's really not about Delta (edited by moderator).

 

[700UW]

If a country has discriminatory policies an American based company should not do business, ie South Africa.

So feel free to insult and call names, if it makes you feel better, guess you cant ever just use facts to debate, says all about you, enough said!

Maybe you have a comprehension problem.

JERUSALEM (RNS)Jews and Israelis, or passengers carrying any non-Islamic article of faith, will not be able to fly code-share flights from the U.S. to Saudi Arabia under Delta Air Line's new partnership with Saudi Arabian Airlines that is set to begin in 2012.

I guess the SS and the Nazis were just following orders too when they killed six million jews and many others.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The rules of the board are the same on the Water Cooler as they are here. I can follow it there.
.
It also doesn't change the fact that you were the first to jump on the thread attempting to show that it was DL's fault. It also doesn't change the fact that you confused nationality and religion or that you said it was an alliance decision when in fact every international carrier would have the same requirements, even if that carrier did not carry the passenger into SA?

Is that correct?
.
700,
Israeli passport holders or persons with an Israeli stamp in any passport cannot fly on ANY carrier to SA. Once again, you can't quite comprehend it has nothing to do with DL - as much as you and others want to try and make it that way.

 

[700UW]

So go do business with Al Queda, The Taliban, or any other group that is discriminatory, DL should have declined to allow them in the alliance.

 

[eolesen]

of course, Eric, it's not Delta's fault....
so if it isn't DL's fault, then why did you rush to say that the link doesn't help matters.
Does it help matters any less that OTHER airlines use Timatic and quote the same information?
And by your own admission AA and UA don't offer the same information. So does it make any more or less of ANY airlines" fault that if you use AA or UA, you have to go to a US government website that doesn't provide much information?
.
You rushed to diss Delta and you had to backtrack because in fact the information you quoted is not at all specific to DL.
.

Ah, more deflection.

Since you asked, I think it's dumb from a branding standpoint to have Timatic data with the airline's logo on it.

That holds true for what DL, AS, and CO are doing.

Why? It makes it appear that they're the one providing the information, regardless of the sourcing statement at the bottom of the iFrame.

Oddly, the approach that Spirit took is the one I like the best -- bringing their customers into the IATA branded page.


It's sad that you think every comment made by me is somehow "out to get Delta". It only makes you look even more foolish than your 1000 word essays do...


The only one rushing to judgement right now is you, in your zealotry to try and defend DL while also continuing your sad personal vendetta to discredit me...

Let's be clear about something. You're the one continuing to make discussions personal. And you can expect to continue to be responded to with equal force when you do.

For your own benefit, I suggest you take your own advice offered to me not too long ago, and that you "back off, mister" because that cloak of anonymity got stepped on darn good.

 

[signals]

So this entire argument is because Jews foresee an Atlanta-Mecca-Tel Aviv flight in Delta's future?

Please have cameras ready and YouTube accessable! :blink:

I'm sure it will end well