Fireworks and drama in manhattan...

[TWU informer]

I guess only YOU get it.

I don't see the company BEGGING the APA to resume negotiations...
Since the pilots have been abrogated, and AA exits BK and pilots now revert back to the NMB and railway labor act.....negotiations essentialy begin again and could drag on for months, maybe years once more..

NOBODY KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN...

Including YOU!

Please post your law credentials when you get a chance.

Time will tell, and my opinions are just as valid as yours. No need to get personal.
I have no law degree and neither do you. "But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express"

If you cannot discuss like adults without getting personal and angry then move to the back of the bus please.

Could be that as soon as the NMB and RLA are back to governing that "self help" could begin immediately.
This is why the APA will conduct a strike vote. not for showmanship, but because they know this is possible.

I never said I knew what would happen, I was simply stating that everything you post is narrow minded about the Bankruptcy and 1113 law. There has to be life after those laws are exhausted and a POR is approved, and you refuse to look into that option and what might happen then.

 

[Hopeful]

Time will tell, and my opinions are just as valid as yours. No need to get personal.
I have no law degree and neither do you. "But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express"

If you cannot discuss like adults without getting personal and angry then move to the back of the bus please.

Could be that as soon as the NMB and RLA are back to governing that "self help" could begin immediately.
This is why the APA will conduct a strike vote. not for showmanship, but because they know this is possible.

I never said I knew what would happen, I was simply stating that everything you post is narrow minded about the Bankruptcy and 1113 law. There has to be life after those laws are exhausted and a POR is approved, and you refuse to look into that option and what might happen then.

And I have said what you mentioned is "possible."

And all I have been saying is that "consensual" agreements are not required to exit bk.....And I, too, do not have any law crdentials, but lawyers have said it, now the UCC said it.
Of course your scenario can very well occur. But my point is that unions can exit bk "exposed."
Look how long we have all been in negotiations......with no release in sight.
I don't see any union getting released as long as politics and economic conditions are what they are.

Also keep in mind, that should the day come for "self help" by the APA, that when they strike, the company is also free to hire replacement pilots and impose whatever they wish once again.

People seem to forget that should a union exhaust all the NMB means and get released, they are free to strike. But they sometimes forget the company is also free to impose a new contract as well in addition to replacement workers.

Speaking of getting personal, because of my postings, I have been labeled by you "narrow minded" and lastly, a "mangaement suckass" by Bob Owens.
Maybe I am just being realistic.

The point I have been trying to make is that I am not going to live vicariously through the pilots.
What they might get or what they might do will do NOTHING for the rest of us who are stuck for six years.


I understand your feeling that the pilots might do better with the path they chose. And they can very well achieve more of their goals.

But we are locked in for six years and there is nothing we can do regarding it. We could say we COULD'VE and SHOULD'VE voted no like the pilots. But we didn't and we have to live with what we are stuck with.

So feel free to have the last word and I am done with this topic. If what you think will happen happens then you can say "I told you so."

Until then, I'll see you in other topics.

 

[johnny kat]

I don't think it will be so easy to replace thousands of highly skilled pilots on a whim. If the pilots strike it will be the end of AA.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think it will be so easy to replace thousands of highly skilled pilots on a whim. If the pilots strike it will be the end of AA.

No one is saying it would be easy to replaced thousands of them. I only made the point that when a union is released to self-help, the company is also released into doing anything that they want including hiring replacements.

 

[Mach85ER]

I don't think it will be so easy to replace thousands of highly skilled pilots on a whim. If the pilots strike it will be the end of AA.

Yup.

Any replacement talk or the typical Talk Radio speak of 'there's thousands of pilots ready to do the job' is a fairy tale.

There are not that many qualified pilots available and AA's training is performed by Check Airman pilots who are also APA Union members. Even as we speak, AA has a real fear that these Check Pilots could resign their positions to go back flying the line as regular pilots.

If that happens, it will be as bad as strike for AA.

 

[Overspeed]

How did Pan Am and EAL do?

When US, DL and UA went through BK they landed at around where AA already was. They all already make more than we do.

As far as "on time" those numbers are under the companies control, they can spin them. Sure the OT will flow, and when it does its because a plane that should be out there flying and generating revenue is sitting in a hangar, no delays just cancellations, or the company will have to underutilize their fleet and keep spares around the system.

PA and EA were a different time and waited too long before filing BK. Lorenzo had gutted EA of all their good assets and moved them to CO by the time they filed BK. PA had killed themselves by waiting too long and going BK with no restructuring cash. DL was the DIP financing and then they pulled it after they saw had bad off PA really was.

Look at all the facts Liquidation Bob.

 

[Hopeful]

Yup.

Any replacement talk or the typical Talk Radio speak of 'there's thousands of pilots ready to do the job' is a fairy tale.

There are not that many qualified pilots available and AA's training is performed by Check Airman pilots who are also APA Union members. Even as we speak, AA has a real fear that these Check Pilots could resign their positions to go back flying the line as regular pilots.

If that happens, it will be as bad as strike for AA.

fear not....political forces will probably thwart any release from NMB, let alone a strike to occur..
How many employees and vendors of AA are in Chicago..you know President Obama's home town?

And should a strike occur, expect Obama to pull a Clinton and let the pilots strike for five minutes.

 

[Overspeed]

Best for whom? Not for us.

"Us"? Say what you really mean Liquidation Bob. Not best for you and your geo pay Bob.

 

[Overspeed]

"Consensual agreements are best" has been the flavor of the day in every bankruptcy, but no work group has ever taken the non-consensul agreement path all the way the limit. Therefore, you and others have to use words like "apparently" and "I maintain", or some other words that inidicate this issue if far from set in stone. At some point, some "union" will have to take this all the way. And the APA membership is in the best position to do just that and codify by advancing further the legal aspects of this anti-worker, pro-greedy investor law. In other words everyone seems to agree that the APA is already in uncharted waters as far as this law goes, and truth be known, both legally and debtor needs, it is still early in the fight. The fight needs to be advanced, why not the APA and why not at AA?

"Flavor of the day?" Really? Apparently you have not been listening to the craft union prophet. (ref. UAL)


According to AMFA National Director O.V. Delle-Femine, "Our members accepted this agreement through democratic voting. Our choice was to consent to concessions from the company or risk even worse terms imposed by the bankruptcy judge, who has shown a proclivity to agree to company demands. The bankruptcy laws, the court system and federal agencies like the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation are strongly biased in favor of the large airline corporations. Thanks to Congress, these laws show little concern for average workers."

 

[Bob Owens]

"Us"? Say what you really mean Liquidation Bob. Not best for you and your geo pay Bob.

Yep just keep throwing out knicknames you hope will stick 'company man pretending to be Union Overspin'.

Not best for people who have to work under these concessions for the next six years. Even the TWUs experts argued that the reason why we should accept these terms is because they felt that AA would be involved in a merger (USAIRWAYS) which they felt could open the contract.

 

[Bob Owens]

You still do not get it:

Here is your paragpraph that causes fear and worry in your mind:
"The committee said it expects voluntary agreements with all labor groups. But if a deal with pilots isn't possible, the committee said, AMR could "propose and prosecute" a reorganization plan without one. "

If and when a Plan of Reoganization is approved, then negotations and authority moves from the Bankruptcy Laws back the the Railway Labor Act, under the Railway Labor Act the APA would claim that the "status quo" has been unilaterally changed by the employer, this creates an opened the door for arguement of self help under the Railway Labor Act.

The legal question is "Which Law trumps"? The Railway Labor Act of 1926 or the 1113 of the Bankruptcy Law.
Without consensual agreement, then my opinion is that whichever is governing the process. Sure the APA is under the 1113 process now, but not once the POR is approved and the BK law is no longer governing. Therefore the RLA takes over and then everything changes.

This is when the final rounds of the fight begin. By then, AA and the APA will be so at odds with each other, the only means of survival will be NEW MANGEMENT, and real negotiations under the Railway Labor Act.

You on the other hand, believe that 1113 and BK Law is the end game. It is not. Not by a long shot.

Remind me to never follow you into a battle with greedy corporate management.

Every piece of legal advice given during the last view months to all unions has been strictly advice about the Bankruptcy Law, but once a POR is approved, the Railway Labor Act once again is the governing law and really in my mind, always has been.
This Bankruptcy Law is a temporary reorganization law, not one where a company with $4.5 Billion can circumvent the Railway Labor Act because the employees would not hand over their pensions voluntarily after being screwed, lied too, and shafted by management of the Corporation.

Get a clue. Sorry, I dont know wany other way to put it.
But at least think in long terms and about ALL Legislation and how screwed up the laws are, then stop focusing on one single law and look at the global fight and what law governs in each round of the battle.

I still say that APA and AA are only in early rounds of what could be a lengthy and ugly fight. It is up to management and how they intend to treat and recognize the professionals of the APA.

Good points. Its obvious that the appeals court screwed up big time with the NWA decision (i heard that from more than one lawyer) and I agree that the Pilots need to challenge it, I just wish were there next to them.

Bankruptcy was put in place to relieve a debtor of debts and liabilities, such as onerous contracts, that prevent the debtor from recovering, it was not intended to allow the debtor to force onerous terms on its creditors, which is what abrogation and a ban on the right to stike does to Unions. Yes individual workers have the right to quit, but if thats the arguement then its also true that individual shareholders have the right to sell their shares if the court has the right to force onerous deals on corporations for the benefit of the debtor.

The thing is nowhere in 1113 did it say that airline workers could not strike, 1113 covers all labor contracts and every other worker in this country is allowed to strike under abrogation, and the RLA explicitely allows workers to strike if the company unilaterally changes pay and working conditions, and outside of bankruptcy (or release) what other way can a carrier legally unilaterally change a contract? None that I know of.

The laws are not in conflict, so there is no which law trumps which question, the conflict lies with the decision on a restraining order by an appelate court. According to the NMB the process' run concurrant. They sat in on the 1113 meetings for some time, usually eating lunch with the company.

I think that the airlines want to keep things vauge and unwritten because the arguements that labor has strikes at the heart of both sides of the political spectrum, for the left its about the rights of workers, should Airline workers have the same protections under the law as Railroad workers and if not should they have the same freedoms as everyone else, including other creditors? For the rights its about the confiscation of private property (the labor of workers) from one owner for the benifit of another owner who is more favored by the government. If they can confiscate our property for the benefit of the airlines bottom line whats stopping them from confiscating oil from the oil companies for the airlines bottom line? (Other than the fact the oil companies can probably buy more Judges than the airlines.)

In order for the law to be respected it has to at the very least appear to be fair, not one person on this forum, even FWAAA, who claims to be a lawyer, has come forward to defend the arguement made by the appelate court in the NWA case because its indefensible. A pilot struggle, and whatever goes along with that will put the spotlight on what any decent Jurist would admit is a huge embarrasment to their craft and a threat to the credibility of the system.

Unfortunately my guess is that once the 6 month window has expired on our "Me Too" clause the company will strike a deal with the pilots, recalculate a bunch of "values" to save face, and settle without this going to the end. (Unless they find a way around the "Me Too' which probably would not be too hard -from past experience, then it would be less than 6 months.) Nobody, except workers, wants this to be brought out into the light. The TWU doesnt want that, all the other Airline Unions who folded dont want that, the courts dont want it, and the entire business community doesnt want the sweetheart deal thay have in C-11 to become the focus of political debate and possible reform. In the end the pilots will lose very little other than that required to remain close to their peers at UAL and Delta, but we will still be dead last.

 

[Bob Owens]

In the NWA case the Court said that Airline workers could not strike upon abrogation of the contract because as far as they were concerned there is no status quo violation because the contract never existed. They had to start Sect 6 as if they just got elected to represent the workers. Well how could that be? Thats not abrogation, thats an annulment of a contract and where did the court get the authority to annul labor agreements, specifically agreements recognized under the law (RLA) that were modified and in place for decades? In some cases those contracts were put in place by a panel appointed by the President of the United States (PEB) !! What is the arguement to claim that the agreement was illegal therefore never existed and why would it only apply to Airline workers contracts and no other creditors? If I were a debtor I would love that, annul all the deals, they never existed so not only could I wipe out the debt, I would not be obliged to provide any equity to my creditors either because the court has decried that those contracts, and the debts associated with them never existed, plus I could impose new terms and pay what i felt would allow me to make $3 billion a year in profits!!!!!!

 

[TWU informer]

"Flavor of the day?" Really? Apparently you have not been listening to the craft union prophet. (ref. UAL)


According to AMFA National Director O.V. Delle-Femine, "Our members accepted this agreement through democratic voting. Our choice was to consent to concessions from the company or risk even worse terms imposed by the bankruptcy judge, who has shown a proclivity to agree to company demands. The bankruptcy laws, the court system and federal agencies like the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation are strongly biased in favor of the large airline corporations. Thanks to Congress, these laws show little concern for average workers."

Damn, I forgot, with you one track mind stooges, everything happening at AA is either AMFA's fault or Delle-Femine's fault. Now even when we are discussing APA Pilots? Amazing power that "tiny" union, and a man resting in retirement has.

At what point do you actually hold the TWU responsible for anything happening at AA?

 

[1AA]

And should a strike occur, expect Obama to pull a Clinton and let the pilots strike for five minutes.

5 minutes? That long?

 

[Hopeful]

5 minutes? That long?

Yeah....That way Clinton actually let them strike as if he wasn't going to get involved. In a way it was a pretty good move.
No PEB....He let them think they would be able to strike long enough to actually be effective.