Here's Proof, Owens Was Correct!

Nightwatch

Veteran
Jun 8, 2004
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Judge Nixes Labor Contract in Bankruptcy

August 9, 2004 04:20 PM EDT


PIKEVILLE, Ky. - A federal bankruptcy judge ruled Monday that Horizon Natural Resources does not have to honor its union contracts, a decision that will eliminate medical coverage for thousands of coal miners, including some sick from black lung disease.
Miners had asked U.S. Bankruptcy Judge William Howard to require Horizon, the nation's fourth largest coal company, to abide by the labor contracts protecting health care and retirement benefits for 1,000 active miners and about 2,300 retirees.

Howard's order sparked an immediate outcry from the United Mine Workers of America, which had staged protests on the streets outside his courtroom in downtown Lexington.

"These workers did absolutely nothing wrong," said UMWA President Cecil Roberts, who promised to appeal. "They worked hard, did what was expected and accepted lower wages for the promise of health care, but look where that got them. They've been left high and dry. No health care and no job rights."

Miners said it was unfair that a bankruptcy judge had the authority to allow companies to shed medical costs and retiree benefits to make them more attractive to potential buyers.

Newcoal LLC, formed by New York billionaire Wilbur L. Ross and four other investors, and several other companies have expressed an interest in buying Horizon's nonunion properties. However, no one has made an offer on any of Horizon's six union operations in Illinois, Kentucky and West Virginia, said Jim Morris, Horizon's vice president for business development.

In his ruling, Howard agreed with Morris's claim that financial obligations related to union contracts and the union's retirement plan made them unattractive to potential buyers. The company's assets are scheduled to be auctioned on Aug. 17.

Matt Isner, spokesman for Horizon, did not immediately return a message seeking comment on Monday's ruling.

In the decision, Howard said his ruling could actually save jobs, albeit nonunion ones, adding that he saw no reason for employment to be affected if the mines were sold while still in operation.

Horizon, posting huge financial losses and unable to pay its creditors, filed for bankruptcy in November 2002.

The company's assets, valued at just less than $1 billion, are being sold in an attempt to satisfy about $1 billion in debts and other obligations.
 
So the twu saved your job for a few more years. Liquidation is inevitable. I wonder what logo will be on that tail next? Hopefully Jet blue or maybe Southwest. It is a shame they contract out their overhaul work though. Hey you could all ways live in one of those high cost of living areas that you ran away from years ago.
Better yet just keep giving back soon you wont be able to afford the low cost living areas. :lol:
 
Where is that powerful AFL-CIO alliance?

The Unieted Mine Workers are AFL-CIO, right?

I thought belonging to the 35 million affiliation would keep this from happening?

I guess that was another TWU/Jim Little LIE!
 
Decision 2004 said:
Where is that powerful AFL-CIO alliance?

The Unieted Mine Workers are AFL-CIO, right?

I thought belonging to the 35 million affiliation would keep this from happening?

I guess that was another TWU/Jim Little LIE!
[post="167387"][/post]​

Well one thing you can be sure of is that they are not liquidating the assetts of the locals and donating it to the members that paid for them.

The AFL-CIO? Well they are probably going to spilll out more rhetoric, but no action, about the harm that working people are experiencing.

The truth is that the AFL-CIO does not have the authority or the ability to direct any union to take action. Thats why we know Jim Little was lying when he claimed that the "AFL-CIO" directed him to make all the presidents sign letters of loyalty to him.

The AFL-CIO has its functions, when properly used it can be benificial for the members. Unfortunately it is often used for the benifit of currupt union leaders to the detriment of the members.

The AFL-CIO can be an assett to a union and its members. Its worthwile to be a member, however it is not that much of an assett that its worthwhile to remain in a union like the TWU just because they are affiliated.
 
Did UAL employees do better in bankruptcy?

Before bankruptcy, the IAM negotiated concessions were limited to a 7% wage concession. After being persueded by amfa organizers that they would be better off in bankruptcy, UAL mechanics rejected the consensual agreement. The company then filed "Chapter 11" and demanded $345.000.000.00 in annual concessions from the mechanic and related group. This is exactly what UAL got and it included, among other things:

Unrestricted outsourcing of all heavy maintenance allowing for thousands of layoffs and closure of two bases.

A system protection date of January 1990.

A threefold increase in medical and dental premiums.

New post retiree medical premiums ranging from $100.00 to $600.00 per month.
 
So, it's AMFA's fault that the IAM "sorched the earth" with UAL's mechanics and related? The government refused to loan UAL any money back when the concession vote was taken saying UAL management had no plan. It wasn't because UAL mechanics voted down concessions that UAL went into bankruptcy. UAL was going into bankruptcy concessions or not! Look at USAIR. IAM mechanics voted for concessions twice and still went into bankruptcy. Now USAIR wants even more concessions or they will go bankrupt again! When do you TWU supporters plan on to stop giving concessions? Will you TWU supporters ever say "enough is enough!"
 
I will tell you this Princess. I believe the decision top provide concessions for the survival of AA was the correct way to go. And I further agree with the statement from Jim Little at the scheduled debate that Delle lacked the "charisma to attend"......See Below ;)


We will not accept any further concessions...!!! :angry:

------------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!
 
High Speed Steel said:
I will tell you this Princess. I believe the decision top provide concessions for the survival of AA was the correct way to go. And I further agree with the statement from Jim Little at the scheduled debate that Delle lacked the "charisma to attend"......See Below ;)
We will not accept any further concessions...!!! :angry:

------------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!
[post="170251"][/post]​


Which one these 20 years of concessions do you think was the "correct way" to go?

pay_vs_cpi.jpg



AND BTW, you will be accepting another concession next January when you pay more out-of-pocket for your health care!!!!!!!!!

And you will also accept another concession each January after that also!!!!!
 
Strake said:
Did UAL employees do better in bankruptcy?

Before bankruptcy, the IAM negotiated concessions were limited to a 7% wage concession. After being persueded by amfa organizers that they would be better off in bankruptcy, UAL mechanics rejected the consensual agreement.
[post="170122"][/post]​


Is it always somebody else's fault when a man cast his ballot in the privacy of his own home?

What happened to men that think for themsleves?

How about at USAir the IAM refused to accept a vote against concessions, the IAM forced a revote and then the concessions passed, USAir still went Bankrupt and may well liquidate next month. Using your logic and thinking, who is responsible for that activity?

I personally make my own decisions and do not have such low self esteem that I must blame someone else when things become difficult.

The day you learn to accept accountability for your own actions instead of blaming someone else is the day you will really understand what being a union man really means. You probably voted against Randy McDonald all the while you claim he did the right thing. Why would you turn your back on the leader that led you in a path that you claim was difficult but correct? Now you have known quitter, wife beater, and violator of friendship trust as a Local President, you wear the logo with pride, while the AFL-CIO promotes same sex marriages, and gun control. Do you really know what you are suppporting? Or are you blinded to to the truth by your own fear and hate for AMFA?

How many times must you be shown this picture to understand that it was actually the IAM rallying against the concessions at United? Please point out where you see the "AMFA Organizers" in this photo that you claim persuaded the United Mechanics to vote against the concession agreement? Because this photo came directly from an IAM Newsletter not and AMFA Organizer Handout.

You can keep your head buried in the sand believing the lies the TWU tell you, or you can simply look at the picture and see the truth.

iam_no_concessions.jpg
 
So high speed steel you don't see the problem with AA dumping 1.5 billion dollars in to the regional carriers right out of AA's reserve cash just so they can tell you they are low on reserve cash and have to file bankruptcy if they don't get the concessions just two months later. Tell me HSS how much of the revenue from the cargo business goes back into the airlines at AA. How much should AA be paying out to regional’s while operating on a 9% reduced capacity at AA. I can tell you one thing the 1.55 billion they dumped in the regional’s was 1.4 billion more than they spent on them the two previous years combined. You guy's are a joke your families must be real proud of you. Have you ever read attachment 1.5 of our contract. Do you really have to wonder why people are abandoning the TWU in large numbers daily.
 
Strake said:
Did UAL employees do better in bankruptcy?

Before bankruptcy, the IAM negotiated concessions were limited to a 7% wage concession. After being persueded by amfa organizers that they would be better off in bankruptcy, UAL mechanics rejected the consensual agreement. The company then filed "Chapter 11" and demanded $345.000.000.00 in annual concessions from the mechanic and related group. This is exactly what UAL got and it included, among other things:

Unrestricted outsourcing of all heavy maintenance allowing for thousands of layoffs and closure of two bases.

A system protection date of January 1990.

A threefold increase in medical and dental premiums.

New post retiree medical premiums ranging from $100.00 to $600.00 per month.
[post="170122"][/post]​


I see a little bit of TWU reviosionist history here.

First of all the mechanics rejected the concessions because they felt that UAL had no plan other than concessions.

Secondly UAL filed for bankruptcy after they were rejected by the ATSB for a loan. The rejection for the loan was with the assumption that the mnechanics would agree to the concessions. The board felt that even with the concessions in place that UAL did not have a valid plan. So the mechanics rejection of concessions had nothing to do with UAL declaring bankruptcy.

"Unrestricted outsourcing of all heavy maintenance allowing for thousands of layoffs and closure of two bases."

The only option that UAL had to meet AAs pre-concession overhaul costs was to somehow slash at least 2500 overhaul mechanics from $35/hr to around $15 per hour. Thats due to the fact that AA has had low cost overhaul mechanics since 1995. The TWU gave AA what no other union would give any other airline. So UAL, chose to close the bases and contract it out because more than likely anyone who saw their pay slashed from $35/hr to $15/hr would not be productive. The IAM , who was representing them refused to lash out at their AFL-CIO counterparts at AA and just let the company do it.

Another factor was that AA enjoyed unlimited outsourcing of all maintenance, not just overhaul. AA, even with their low cost OSMs also enjoyed the ability to contract out whatever they wanted because the TWU did not have any means of really monitoring what the company was contracting out. Industry reports showed that AA contracted out more work than any other carrier but even to this day the TWU has no accurate means to monitor outsourcing.

"A system protection date of January 1990."

I was unaware that UAL had a system protection date. However those who really relied on out "system protection" were dissappointed to see the TWU pull it out from under them. In reality System protection with the TWU as your bargaining agent is an illusion.

A threefold increase in medical and dental premiums.

And it will still take years before they pay out as much for medical and dental as AA employees have been paying since 1990.

New post retiree medical premiums ranging from $100.00 to $600.00 per month.

Again, something that we have been paying for since 1990.

Lets take the average, of the numbers you have given., $300 per month, that comes out to 3600/year. Now lets compare some of the concessions we took and how much it cost us. Loss of Five Holidays and the time and a half plus holiday pay if worked premium-approximately a $5000 loss in earnings. Loss of one week of vacation-$1400. Already we are $2800 in the hole, on top of that we have the half pay sick days, no doubletime, loss of paid lunch, training after shift at straight time,reduction of IOD bank, uniforms,increased medical, increased copay etc.
 
HSS, No more concessions from the TWU? <_< Yeah right! I wonder what the TWU's spin will be when TWU gives away our pension? VOTE YES to save your job! Concessions are GOOD! AMFA BAD! WILL STRIKE(OUT) WHEN PROVOKED! WE"LL GIT'EM NEXT TIME! We negotiated away the pension to prevent layoffs!

HSS, your hero(s) has to be FRANK LORENZO or CARL ICAHN :down: .
 
NightWatch, you bring up a good point and that is they accepted concession and it did not help one bit. Take a look at the afl-cio iam at USAir and you will see the third time concessions in action. In the end if management does not get their ship together the inevitable is going to happen. The afl-cio company unions have put put these companies on labor backed corporate welfare and they have no incentive to make necessary changes to fix the business. Their new business is to get more concessions.
 
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #14
Mark Inman said:
So high speed steel you don't see the problem with AA dumping 1.5 billion dollars in to the regional carriers right out of AA's reserve cash just so they can tell you they are low on reserve cash and have to file bankruptcy if they don't get the concessions just two months later. Tell me HSS how much of the revenue from the cargo business goes back into the airlines at AA. How much should AA be paying out to regional’s while operating on a 9% reduced capacity at AA. I can tell you one thing the 1.55 billion they dumped in the regional’s was 1.4 billion more than they spent on them the two previous years combined. You guy's are a joke your families must be real proud of you. Have you ever read attachment 1.5 of our contract. Do you really have to wonder why people are abandoning the TWU in large numbers daily.


So by your statements you blame the TWU for this? And AMFA will distribute the cash of American's where it deems necessary? AMFA holds this power? WOW! This AMFA has a whole lot more power than the TWU, yeah right. AMFA can't even decide how many members are returning to work even after being awarded a pittance in the FM2 ruling.
 
Nightwatch,Aug 19 2004, 03:27 AM]

So by your statements you blame the TWU for this?

Yes!!! Didnt the TWU say they had full access to the company's books so they could see if the company's requests were justified? If you were renting a room to someone and they went out a bought a Mercedes then said hey you have to lower my rent because I cant afford it anymore would you lower it? Sure, maybe he cant afford the rent but is that your fault and is it reasonable that you should lower the rent so he can drive a Mercedes?

And AMFA will distribute the cash of American's where it deems necessary? AMFA holds this power? WOW!

No. dont be rediculous. What the TWU did was slash our wages and benifits so the company could afford to do what ever they wanted. The $1.5 billion to the regionals went to grow another TWU workforce didnt it? So maybe that helps to explain how the TWUs revenue went up in 2003 despite the paycuts and layoffs at AA. The TWU is funding their growth with our concessions! And, the only remedy we have is to vote out the TWU because we can not vote out Little or any of the other International theives.

This AMFA has a whole lot more power than the TWU, yeah right. AMFA can't even decide how many members are returning to work even after being awarded a pittance in the FM2 ruling.

And the TWU cant even go forward with their FM Grievance!
 
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