Interesting quotes from the courtroom.....

[WorldTraveler]

Make no mistake, I am very grateful for the contributions anyone has made to our country. And I also completely support the military in that they provide valuable careers to many people - not just pilots. Even if nearly half of the DL pilots are now civilian trained, I still assert that many pilots have received their training complements of the government and me as a taxpayer. No other military job yields near as high of a monetary return and, has been pointed out, the vast majority of the people in those other jobs have far less technology at their fingertips to get themselves out of sticky situations. Today's military pilot, while still highly trained and who I would prefer to fly my passenger jet, is not the WWII pilot. Today's air war is sanitized and stealthy thanks to the superiority that the US enjoys in military aviation. I'm proud of it as an American and have a very high degree of trust in those who are practitioners of the profession but I also recognize that such a level of training cannot be bought at any price.

Mark, with all due respect, I don't think anyone is owed anything by anybody. There's WAY too much entitlement mentality in the US today. I've worked for everything I have in life except for what God Himself has given me. At least 5 out of 6 billion people on the planet also live life that way.

Bus, were you drafted or did you volunteer? Unless it was the former, you "asked for" every one of those nickels that you "received". Even if you were drafted, you had a better life than the vast majority of the members of the military. Again, I thank you and I owe you a debt of gratitude and I promise to care for your physical and emotional well being which might have been harmed in any way for your service but I do not owe you a high paying job once you return to civilian life. I had an incredibly grateful and intelligent Vietnam era gentlemen who worked for me for a number of years; he expected nothing in return and was grateful for everything he received when he came home. And because of his gratitude, I took him very closely under my wing and threw the best retirement party I could when he left our company.

 

[Busdrvr]

"No other military job yields near as high of a monetary return"

Really? I'd bet one of my classmates, a military DR would dispute that.....

"the vast majority of the people in those other jobs have far less technology at their fingertips to get themselves out of sticky situations"

Then you've never seen the stuff available to a C-130 guy. You'd be surprised at how FEW items military jets have to enhance safety. In many repects, civilian jets are MUCH safer due to TCAS and EGPWS.

Today's air war is sanitized and stealthy thanks to the superiority that the US enjoys in military aviation.

Not really. You'd be surprised at what it is REALLY like. While I never worried about an Afghani fighter rolling in on me, the proliferation of cheap manpads and the type missions being flown make for a much more challenging enviroment than you realize.

"I still assert that many pilots have received their training complements of the government and me as a taxpayer."

The govt needed pilots, I applied. They told me the conditions of the agreement, and I accepted. They proformed their side of the deal, I proformed mine. I own them nothing. The fact that I left with a marketable skill only meant that the government could require more out of me. Without a market for those skills far fewer people would be signing up, and those who id would be willing to serve a much shorter commitment.

 

[WorldTraveler]

...which is precisely why the military is attractive to many people.

As for doctors, I believe most military doctors are trained in civilian medical schools while the government pays for their training in return for a commitment of service. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that's quite the same model as a military pilot.

Yes, I'm fully aware that military people make do with much less than their counterparts in private enterprise. But they still have far better equipment than the militaries of most other countries - even if it is held together by bandaids and bailing wire.

And in case you have missed it, manpads aren't just a military threat anymore. Any I've only been on one 757 flight where I even considered that the plane was equipped w/ afterburners. Let's such say we had twice scrambled eggs and a tossed fruit salad for breakfast - and we weren't under attack but it sure was fun.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I was not speaking of entitlement, even if it came across that way. And I for sure did not mean anyone owed ME anything. I guess it is the "subsidized" word that I thought maybe a little out of place. Using your logic (which I agree with other than on a few small issues) there is no subsidy going on...simply a business exchange of what the country needs and certain individuals are willing work for, just like anywhere else. I still believe there are some who gave much more than required...but that is a topic probably best left alone now. The country put me though college, and trained me to fly, and I served them my full commitment, and more. Guess I have always been a little touchy, having been told by some I got a "free" education. Hey WT, Sorry about dragging this off topic on your board. I will give it a rest! Mark.

 

[Ch. 12]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ch.12

Quote: To understand the "ISSUES" in full context, you have to consider all involved"

You are WRONG when the "ISSUE" is DALPA's $$pay and benefits.

This issue is between "3" entities Ch.12, and 3 entities ONLY. NO ONE ELSE IS INVOLVED, or CONSIDERED. !!!!!!!!!!!

(DL...The PILOTS..and ALPA)

Why,
Because the DL pilots wanted a bargaining agent to deal with DL management.
After a legal election, the feds informed DL that they must deal with ALPA, with regard to ALL MATTERS pertaining the pilots.

(Here comes the hard part for you)

Delta Airlines AGREED, and signed "on the bottom line" !!!!

Your probably a VERY intelligent individual, BUT every time your common sense/Logical side of your brain suggest's you ACCEPT/VALIDATE(or a least consider) the mechanics of a LEGAL union, I fear that your EMOTIONAL side goes into super DENIAL mode !!!!

A 1000% correct "saying" emerged from a great film(a few years back) "THE PERFECT STORM" (George Clooney)

The "saying"..........

"It IS what it IS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

First off I'd just like to say that this is great news and shows a willingness of both sides to come to an agreement DL and DALPA - Tentative Initerim Agreement.

NH/BB-

I sure would hope that you understand that I'm speaking of all agents affecting the "issues" (such as the economy and a crumbling industry) and not saying that a fast food employee should be involved in negotiations. I'm not sure exactly which of my posts you were referring to but the two main points I've brought up are that this isn't just a pay issue but a survival issue. There isn't the luxury of getting the salaries we all want right now (at DL...you wouldn't know our story first-hand b/c you aren't IN it) and we ALL need to adjust to the market realities which are such that they cannot sustain the current workforce numbers/salaries (notice I don't mention pilots but mention "workforce"...this is a farther reaching issue.) The other thing I bring up is that the rest of the company's vitality rests on these negotiations. While DALPA and the executives have battled over finding a middle ground, the rest of us at Delta have wondered when/if there would be a work stoppage/slowdown that would send ALL of us to the streets. As far as that is concerned...I'm VERY involved. Please don't take my points out of context b/c I never feigned the notion that others should be involved in the negotiations...unless you mean "other issues" such as the status of the industry/company.

I know unions are near and dear to you and that's fine...but don't over-sensitive the issue and take things that I state out of context and feel that I'm seeking interference in union netotiations. Nothing I have said mentions that...please re-read or ask me to clarify if you don't get my points. I thought they were fairly clear, though. Sorry if I left room for mis-interpretation.

Now...back to the beginning of this post...it is a very good piece of news to ALL of the Delta family that an interim agreement is out there and seems to be headed for final approval. It will be nice to get rid of the thoughts of the 1313 and let real negotiations take place. I know my other DL family feels the same way. On the outside...maybe it's difficult to see our situation but to be a part of the weakest airline in the industry at an extreme low for a once-dominant carrier is not fun...but it brings out the best and worst in all. Here's to hoping for more future "successes" and a prosperous future in which we (DL) can all share.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm sorry but we have to dispense with this "weakest airline" talk. DL is far further along in their turnaround plan than any other airline was at this point in their bankruptcy (for those who filed) or even the two non-bankrupt carriers 6 weeks after their turnaround. And DL's bankruptcy was caused almost exclusively by two credit card processors demands for $1B in holdbacks. There isn't an airline in this industry that could sustain a $1B holdback without filing bankruptcy or liquidating if they were already in C11. The more notable piece is that DL was the only legacy as of Aug 2005 that did not have a holdback arrangement w/ its credit card processors - so much for the theory that DL was the weakest link in the industry.

DL had a plan going into bankruptcy and they are executing against it. The network benefits are already kicking in and will move into warp speed by next summer.

Mark,
no problemo. "Subsidy" does have some negative connotations and I'll therefore use caution when using the word - particularly in the context of ex-military people. You know I have the highest regard for you.

 

[Ch. 12]

I'm sorry but we have to dispense with this "weakest airline" talk. DL is far further along in their turnaround plan than any other airline was at this point in their bankruptcy (for those who filed) or even the two non-bankrupt carriers 6 weeks after their turnaround. And DL's bankruptcy was caused almost exclusively by two credit card processors demands for $1B in holdbacks. There isn't an airline in this industry that could sustain a $1B holdback without filing bankruptcy or liquidating if they were already in C11. The more notable piece is that DL was the only legacy as of Aug 2005 that did not have a holdback arrangement w/ its credit card processors - so much for the theory that DL was the weakest link in the industry.

DL had a plan going into bankruptcy and they are executing against it. The network benefits are already kicking in and will move into warp speed by next summer.

World-

By "weak", I mean "vulnerable". I agree with you that DL has done much more than any other carrier to design a reorganization but I will also say that DL has been the closest to liquidation (not that they ARE that close) because all that it would take is a pilot walkout of a couple of days or even a slowdown of a couple of weeks. Just the news that either is/was possible caused many pax to seek other options and has taken revenue from Delta. The company IS weak because they ARE in an extremely precarious position (which has become worse with the general public booking away). That is the reality of the situation and IMHO, that makes them the weakest (I'm speaking lecacies...obviously they are nowhere near the situation of FlyI. The only other major as weak or weaker would be ATA.) DL's woes go well beyond a credit card processor. Not unlike U and UAL, DL is not facing a cleanup of past messes. Granted...DL is much further along than either of those two could have hoped to be at this point...but that doesn't make them any less vulnerable.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not sure that we know how many pax booked away from DL. Given the reduced # of seats in the marketplace around the holidays, I'm not sure that bookaway had any effect when put beside seat reductions.

The sad reality is that DL has had to reduce itself to complete weakness for anyone to believe they were serious about cutting costs. It's not just the pilots that are at fault; remember that DL tried to negotiate its $4B in unsecured debt outside of BK but the holders balked and will now get pennies on the dollar.

Except for pension reform and a final pilot working agreement, DL has now begun to deal w/ every major issue needed to get the company back on top. The turnaround will come much quicker than alot of people predict although earnings statements will be full of huge charges for months to come. In an ironic way, bigger accounting charges mean more hope for a successful turnaround.

 

[threegreen]

Looks like Delta averted a strike and will be putting a TA out for vote. Anyone know what type of cuts will be coming?




Where Is a Pilot.com

 

[Skymess]

Bus-

You really are an arrogant SOB that thinks you've figured everyone out, aren't you?

Get off your high horse and stop spouting off about things you don't know. Your fantasy world doesn't play well here and your defamation is insulting. You narcissistic approach to life not only turns me off but I'm sure many others on these boards.

awww, leave him alone. He is correct in his assumptions that the LCC's have blown this industry up because their workers are the equivalent of the illegal immigrant lowering the american workers pay.

The problem is that he hasn't come to terms with the fact that it happened and it has changed everything forever. Pilot pay will be lowered with every other pay but executive pay.

It is hard for those people who thought they were white collar top dogs to realize that they are just blue collar laborers like the rest of the people they always thought they were so far above.

 

[Busdrvr]

awww, leave him alone. He is correct in his assumptions that the LCC's have blown this industry up because their workers are the equivalent of the illegal immigrant lowering the american workers pay.

The problem is that he hasn't come to terms with the fact that it happened and it has changed everything forever. Pilot pay will be lowered with every other pay but executive pay.

It is hard for those people who thought they were white collar top dogs to realize that they are just blue collar laborers like the rest of the people they always thought they were so far above.

Skymess,
I understand fully the implication of market forces and what that means to the profession. My gripe with Chapt 12, an obviouly incompetent manager by virtue of the results of his labor..., has NOT been the fact that the market dictated changes to DAL labor agreement. My gripe has been his ill informed "let them eat cake" elitism that thinks he's better than those in that work group. I'd also caveat that by saying that it applies equally to the other workgroups at DAL. There are some fine individuals in every workgroup. They take pride in their work, and it is beyond offensive for someone who has failed at HIS job to then attack other groups as being overpaid and underworked, not on the basis of the "market" but on the basis of his arrogantly ill-informed notion of what someone else does on the job.
I'd suggest you re-evaluate your disdain for the pilot group. If it was some jerk who wouldn't return your calls after a whirlwind layover, let me be the first to appologize for him. Me personally, I want the best, most professional flight/ ground crew I can find. From mechs who maintain a $100 million peice of equipment, to the rampers who ensure the load is correct to the F/A's who work their magic to keep the passengers under control, and are a vital part of the team in every emergency, I wan the best I can get. Likewise, I'd suspect that you'd want the best cockpit crew on your flights. Unfortunately, those who failed the worst since 911 (Chapt 12) get to call the shots in BK.

 

[Busdrvr]

Busdrvr

I gotta agree with FWAAA on this one. There is an endless supply of qualified candidates willing to fly from DSM to ORD five times a day for a lot less money than you are willing to believe.

Even on the major international airline level, look at western Europe (or even Canada). Pilots are paid considerably less there compared to the US, and safety doesn't seem to be suffering.

Yes, to be an airline pilot takes a lot of training and skill and not everyone can do it. But enough people can do it well enough, and still have the "glamorous" image in their heads about what a great job it is, to ensure that pilot wages still have a way to fall before the demand for qualified pilots in the US exceeds the supply.

And by then, the airlines will have figured out a way to get non-US pilots who are willing to settle for even less. I am sure there are lots of very well trained ex-Russian Air Force pilots (for example) who would love to fly from DSM to ORD five times per day and live in the US for $50K/yr ...

It's my understanding that the payscales at the European airlines are not at least on par with the U.S. airlines.
How about Dr's?
Lawyers?
Executives?

Since you think bringing over osme hard drinking ex-soviet pilots would be a good thing, what about Dr's, Lawyers, Executives, flight attendants, garbage men, dentist, and the list goes on and on. The median income in some soviet block countries is less than $100 a month, with Dr's and lawyers making less than $200. As a matter of fact, with what I've seen, U.S. executives are the most overpaid of the bunch when you want to take a global view.

 

[Bear96]

Since you think bringing over osme hard drinking ex-soviet pilots would be a good thing,

Where did I say it would be a GOOD thing? I don't necessarily think it would be a bad thing, but I never said it would necessarily be good either.

what about Dr's, Lawyers, Executives, flight attendants, garbage men, dentist, and the list goes on and on.

It's already happening with some of those jobs. Many doctors in the US are alread from India. Many of the low-cost Western European carriers are recruiting flight attendants from Eastern European countries (not to mention what NW is trying to do to their F/As). Many "Executives" are leading companies in countries other than in their native countries.

The only really tricky one would be lawyers, because most attorney positions require an extraordinarily high level of spoken and, especially, written English, which is extremely difficult to attain if one isn't a native English speaker. Plus, while there are medical schools in (say) India, a law degree isn't as easily transferable to a foreign jurisdiction as most US jurisdictions and legal employers require a JD from a US-accredited law school.

In any case, bring 'em on. I say open up the borders. Document everyone as they come in so we know who's here and we keep out the ones who are up to no good, and so they pay taxes. But then let their ability, drive, creativity and energy compete with fat, happy, and complacent Americans. A little competition is a good thing. In the long run, the US would be stronger for it.

The median income in some soviet block countries is less than $100 a month, with Dr's and lawyers making less than $200. As a matter of fact, with what I've seen, U.S. executives are the most overpaid of the bunch when you want to take a global view.

Undoubtedly that is true. Other than the overpaid US executives, though, we are in a global economy and labor market now, which has its good and bad. Good = opportunities for airlines like UA to expand internationally as international travel and trade increases. Bad (if you are in a rich country) = as long as there are huge disparities in wealth among countries, the standards of living and wages will tend to come down in the rich countries for those in easily transferrable and exportable jobs, and rise in the poor ones.

I'd say that the pilot job by its very nature is easily exportable. If a flight operates from City A to City B, flight crew can be pretty easily and efficiently based in either. If City A is in a rich country and City B is in a poor one where wages are much lower, after a few more artificial foreign ownership issues are resolved, guess where the airline will want to base the crew?

 

[Ch. 12]

Dear Mr. Busdriver,

Quit being so pissed about the world and actually read people's posts. Let me do damage control once more:

1. You say I am elitist yet I (yes, ME) am the one who had to stick up for all of the rest of us when you have stated over and over that no other workgroup can understand the level of education, training, and skill involved with being a pilot. YES...YOU said that...I never claimed that my profession was better than you but I'm not going to have you bash myself and all other workgroups through your condescending elitist outlook. It is funny that you tried turning that one on me but look back through and see that everytime I made a point it was to counter your points on how "wonderfully better" you are than the rest of us.

2. I'm afraid you have a grave misconception about the term "management". You see...that does not mean that I am an executive and make decisions that guide the company. No...that is above my paygrade. I make decisions that affect day to day issues but nothing that guides the overall long-term direction of the company. 99.9% of "management" is the same as me. I know that on these boards we often refer to "mgmt" (I do, too) when referring to the real decision-making executives but do not confuse me with that group. I have my beefs with that group as well. So if you want to put a face on the executives that you loathe so much, don't use mine b/c it ain't me. Sorry. And let's remember that YOU are the one that painted me an elitist. YOU are the one that made up things like I have a Lexus, I have a 6 figure salary, I put myself above all others. Please don't make up things because you are getting so far from the truth it is not funny. I'm the one that is here sticking up for all other workgroups after you have made statements about your superior education and abilities and you think I am the one that is elitist?

3. Your sensitivity and frustration (maybe that you are not as superior as you think) has caused you to make pot shots at myself and many others on these boards. That is not the purpose of these boards so please refrain.
These boards are for intelligent debate and retreating to name calling and defamation is not intelligent debate. I would be more than happy to debate issues with you but you have to stop with the defamation BS b/c it isn't warranted and isn't the purpose of these boards. As you can see...I have stopped responding to many of your posts because they have strayed from decent debate to personal attacks. While I don't defame your character, I ask that you don't defame mine or others on these boards. I understand if you get frustrated at times during debate but constant defamation is a surefire way to find the pastures sooner rather than later.

I look forward to future responsible DEBATE with you in the future and wish you luck on all of your endeavors.

 

[Busdrvr]

1. To quote uncle Ronnie, "There you go again". I have pointed out that you can't replace a highly experienced pilot in short order. that is fact. You can however replace pretty much every failure in management rather quickly. Yet, because the decisions on who get's paid what are made by those same failures, they get to determine what THEY deserve, then some of them come on these boards and pontificate on how little work groups like the pilots work and ignorantly slam them. I have REPEATEDLY stated that pilots are no better than you, while you have REPEATEDLY inferred by your posts that pilots are overpaid and underworked. All I've asked was that you view pilots, as well as the other work groups, as your EQUAL. You are the elitest who has repeatedly made disparaging remarks and characterizations. So which is it? are we your equals? Are there folks in the other workgroups who are just as smart and as talented as you? Oh, and while I'm at it, you took a sarcastic swipe at me when I stated that I was at 99.5%. While it is true that the testing agencies stop at 99%, there are several organizations that use scores as criteria for qualification, and therefore take the numbers past the 99%. Additionally, a little stat theory can get there also.

2. If you add no value to the company, then why do they pay you? If you were so good at your job, then surely, the BOD in an effort to enrich themselves, would see you for all your talents and immediately promote you to the upper offices. the fact that you have, as of yet, not impressed anyone enough to find your way beyond the second floor is rather telling.

3. Your early posts in this string were nothing more than potshots at an entire profession. Sadly, they were so pathetically uninformed that they were offensive. I suggest you re-evalute your previous postings, then get yourself an education on what other workgroups do before you pontifiate again. One surefire way to lose credibility when you are finally given a position of real responsibility is to spout off with little knowledge of the way things really are.