Yet since the inception of Song, JetBlue has had a higher average fare on most routes. JetBlue now competes with Song on nearly 70% of routes. We can thank the folks at Delta for the $59 fares to Florida. Yep Delta created the lowest fare to Florida. Song has done a good job at putting the squeeze on B6 from a revenue side. How much has it cost Delta?
Jetblue reports wider than expected loss
- Thread starter MiAAmi
- Start date
Yet since the inception of Song, JetBlue has had a higher average fare on most routes. JetBlue now competes with Song on nearly 70% of routes. We can thank the folks at Delta for the $59 fares to Florida. Yep Delta created the lowest fare to Florida. Song has done a good job at putting the squeeze on B6 from a revenue side. How much has it cost Delta?
I think the comparison of jetBlue to People Express is a little overstated. I'll concede the fact that they both showed an operating loss after 5 years of service, but that's where it ends. Didn't People's Express problems arise after they acquired Frontier Airlines, meshing two airlines, with completely different operating structures and philosophies. Didn't People Express start flying expensive 747's on Transcon routes. jetBlue is a little smarter than that. Its a stretch to predict the future of jetBlue based on the Peoples Express model of 20 years ago,
Good Points b6bus,
Below is the jetBlue, Delta fare comparison in selected markets where they compete head-to-head. For the most part, jetBlue is attracting higher fare
Average One-Way Fares, 3Q 2005, Single Coupon
Market jetBlue Delta
BOS-RSW $79 $76
BOS-TPA $79 $79
JFK-MCO $102 $93
JFK-PBI $89 $78
JFK-RSW $90 $76
JFK-TPA $96 $90
Also, I think jetBlue has already been quietly raising fares in certain markets. I've been trying to book a trip on jetBlue from BOS to Orlando and noticed the fares to be steeper than I had anticapated.
Below is the jetBlue, Delta fare comparison in selected markets where they compete head-to-head. For the most part, jetBlue is attracting higher fare
Average One-Way Fares, 3Q 2005, Single Coupon
Market jetBlue Delta
BOS-RSW $79 $76
BOS-TPA $79 $79
JFK-MCO $102 $93
JFK-PBI $89 $78
JFK-RSW $90 $76
JFK-TPA $96 $90
Also, I think jetBlue has already been quietly raising fares in certain markets. I've been trying to book a trip on jetBlue from BOS to Orlando and noticed the fares to be steeper than I had anticapated.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,988
- 9,428
It's meant tongue in cheek, but when you consider that airfares from 1981 and today aren't all that different, fuel was less than 50c per gallon, and PE bought those "expensive" 747's for less than $8M each, it's probably a wash when you look at the cost of fuel and aircraft ownership today.
One similarity you can't ignore is that the majors figured out how to compete effectively with PE by their fifth year of operation, much like you see the majors starting to be able to gain traction with Jetblue today. Jetblue's load factor has been dropping while everyone else's is up.
Neeleman thinks that people will pay more to fly Jetblue because they want to fly Jetblue versus the competition.
I've got news for y'all... You'd better hope he's right, because after 20 years in the business, I haven't seen too many cases where leisure travelers or business travelers have been willing to pay a revenue premium for coach on any carrier.
One or two bucks, maybe.
$20 or so on a round trip? Highly doubtful.
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,881
- 1,614
Yep, I always hear people bitching "I'd pay more for a bigger seat, etc" but that is not reality. Whoever has the lowest fare wins.
Everyone else in the industry knew that Jet Blue was due for a major haircut, wonder when the media know it alls (ha!) will figure it out?
All this talk about Peoples Express is making me nostalgic thinking of my college days when I flew them from ALB-EWR-DEN-PHX, on many of occasions The EWR-DEN leg was flown with one of those comfortable 747's and the DEN-PHX leg was operated by Frontier. Which makes me wonder, I remember you paid on-board, what would happen if you were in the air and didn't have any money when they FA's came thru the cabin?
PE's problems really started in '84, a year before they bought the 'real' Frontier. The first 747s had been acquired in '83 for EWR-London, and more were added in '84 for additional Europe and transcon services (the 727s really didn't have westbound transcon range).
The big, problem, though, was that by '84 they were going head-to-head with the majors on many routes, without the benefits of yield management or any CRS system.
The '85 acquisition of Frontier (along with Britt--today's Continental Express--and PBA) only compunded PE's problems. It was the absolute wrong move at the wrong time, and wound up merely delivering PE (along with Frontier, PBA, and Britt) to Lorenzo's Texas Air Corp. empire as a 'lesser of two evils' alternative to completely shutting down.
I am sorry, but that about says it all right there. Farelevels are about what they were in 1985 and while all tings have increased in price, airlines tickets have not, yet you find the price of a ticket steep?
The difference between airlines making a profit or a loss, is about the cost of a latte and a bagel, something passengers do not think twice about buying, but if an air carrier increases the cost of a ticket by 10 dollars, man that is just gouging!
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,881
- 1,614
I wish People's Express flew to Phoenix. At some point they would have if they survived.
I remember the changing airplanes from CO here, we had lots of New York Air planes here and the old Frontier.
PE was a good idea, but, they never should have gotten out of their niche and flew 747's.
I remember the changing airplanes from CO here, we had lots of New York Air planes here and the old Frontier.
PE was a good idea, but, they never should have gotten out of their niche and flew 747's.
Dizel8,
You hit the nail on the head. People have no problem paying 4 dollars for coffee order that sounds more like secret code for unarming a nuclear bomb than a drink. Also, the hotel industry has been seeing some strong growth in price increases and not to mention airport parking. But add $4 to a plane ticket and pax call for an inquiry by the UN Human Rights Commision.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
I just love all this talk about how B6 will just raise fares and everything will be OK because people will be willing to pay the price to fly their wonderful (all coach) airline.
What hypocricy! In the very recent past they were saying "it's the fares, stupid," and how people don't care about anything but getting from point A to point B at the cheapest price. (As long as they could stare mindlessly into a 5 inch satellite TV screen.)
We'll see what happens. But IMO prices will climb at B6 as well as every other airline. As B6 maybe breaks even, others who have learned to keep costs down and compete better will be profitable, and B6's loads will continue to decline.
The pendulum has swung my friends.
What hypocricy! In the very recent past they were saying "it's the fares, stupid," and how people don't care about anything but getting from point A to point B at the cheapest price. (As long as they could stare mindlessly into a 5 inch satellite TV screen.)
We'll see what happens. But IMO prices will climb at B6 as well as every other airline. As B6 maybe breaks even, others who have learned to keep costs down and compete better will be profitable, and B6's loads will continue to decline.
The pendulum has swung my friends.
Barely out of the longest bankruptcy in airline history, stock declining, underestimation of fuel cost, profit looks bleak in the near future and yet, the hubris is already back.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
I just love this headline people love to beat to death. How quickly people forget that the first 1 1/2 years of the BK process was wasted farting around with the ATSB with an administration dead set against UA obtaining it in the first place. With their constantly moving targets, UA didn't have a chance, even though we made every attempt to meet their demands.
Would have been much shorter process had that time not been wasted by our government bureaucracy. In effect UA had to go through 2 bankruptcy procedings.
Besides, I'm glad it took as long as it did. Better to emerge as the pendulum is swinging the other way and low cost airlines like B6 are starting to have trouble. It will make the competition a little more sporting!
runway4
Advanced
People Express also at the same time bought two commuter carriers -- Britt and PBA. It was quite a mish-mash around the North Terminal. Customer service tanked from its already hit-or-miss level. For the most part, PE was QUITE a different animal.
(Sorry, MGA... I hadn't yet seen your post...)
runway4
Advanced
Looks like B6 missed the mark on the 190 debut... rushed it into high-frequency service on a high-visibility route in winter (oy!) before the crews had the hours to land in the soup, exacerbated by the HUD not being certified (anyone know when that's going to happen?). They should have done some BUF-MCO or similar longer/thinner
I have to believe that an ecomony of scale has to be reached at some point with the 190s. I'm not sure at how many aircraft that will be reached. And as for all this talk about WN having one aircraft type, let's be honest... aren't there huge differences between the classics and the NGs from inventory and training perspectives?
While the prospects of new cities is exciting to think about, esp. since I live in NYC, the costs of starting up new stations has to be astronomical.
Flying B6 out of JFK as of late has been really tiring. What used to be a fun trip through an blast-from-the-past terminal has now become a noisy hassle (the new AA T9 is an oasis by comparison). Waits for a gate can be painful on the inbound. I've had kurt or rude treatment by a few ground agents and a skycap at B6, and rarely hear a thank you. Not signs that people are happy to see me or anyone else as their customer.
I have to believe that an ecomony of scale has to be reached at some point with the 190s. I'm not sure at how many aircraft that will be reached. And as for all this talk about WN having one aircraft type, let's be honest... aren't there huge differences between the classics and the NGs from inventory and training perspectives?
While the prospects of new cities is exciting to think about, esp. since I live in NYC, the costs of starting up new stations has to be astronomical.
Flying B6 out of JFK as of late has been really tiring. What used to be a fun trip through an blast-from-the-past terminal has now become a noisy hassle (the new AA T9 is an oasis by comparison). Waits for a gate can be painful on the inbound. I've had kurt or rude treatment by a few ground agents and a skycap at B6, and rarely hear a thank you. Not signs that people are happy to see me or anyone else as their customer.
