Just How Can Govt Surveil Today's "Bad Guys"?

jerseyfinn

Senior
Mar 19, 2006
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NJ USA
OK, I'm just floating out an idea here.

A jury convicts Padilla of terrorist threats. But he's convicted on "lesser" charges and not the dirty bomb plot which lands him in jail. This is partly because intelligence agencies would have been forced to reveal too much about their methodology and sources in an open court, thus compromising on-going surveillance and ops.

Let's forget the anti-Bush BS and look at the real problem facing ANY government trying to deal with today's terrorists. On one hand, you could argue that today's terrorism is nothing new in human history. There have been dissenting folks who take extremist views and act upon these views in nasty ways and governments have dealt with them over time. Hence government efforts to seek extraordinary powers are most usually met with refusal by public and government institutions ( there are however exceptions, such as Lincoln suspending habeus corpus during the Civil War ).

So today's radical Islamists are in many ways, no different than past terrorists. Yet that it is not quite so.

I suggest that there is something rather unique about today's terrorism which extends beyond the usual rhetoric employed by al Qaeda or public opponents to expanding government powers. While today's terrorism is indeed an international problem requiring a response from all governments, we neglect to admit that today's terrorists are more sophisticated ( and lethal ) than previous terrorists. Though much of their methodology mirrors the past ( bombings, kidnapping, using proxies to cause mayhem and discord ), today's terrorists melt into the matrix of nations while also seeking to utilize the tools of nation states to build dirty bombs or to develop biological weapons. It's the reality of today's world and the technology which characterizes it.

So how then is any government to respond to this sort of threat? What I'm suggesting is that we've grown cozy and comfortable with our Constitutional parchment which outlines our liberties, but as a living document it also provides for governements to adapt to the world and times in which it lives. How does any government assure its citizens that a dirty bomb won't go off in a city? The answer is that it can not. But does this then mean that governments are powerless and should do nothing to try to intervene?

I'm not arguing that nothing is too good for "We the People" and that government should have a free hand to do as it pleases. But given the technology terrorists have at their finger tips, their ability to melt into the public matrix, and the immediacy by which London, Paris, or New York could have a device set off by the bad guys, just what can the People do to give themselves and their government a fighting chance to interdict these malevolant terrorists ( or call "get lucky" )?

I think the Padilla case is a warning to all of us that given today's lethal technology, and the immediacy of the Internet and wireless communications, that we can not afford to live in the past and assume that paper writs and court orders will always be expedient enough for governments to surveil and interdict terrorism. But we do indeed cross into potentially dangerous territory when we separate today's terrorists from yesterday's Red Brigades. History is knocking on the door telling us to wake up and have a national dialog which takes into account the realities of today's verydangerous world. The Padilla case tells us we need to do so now and not later.

Barry
 
We get what we deserve. We the people do not give a damn about our country or the representatives that we "choose" to run it. As a result we get the likes of Bush, Cheney, Scooter et al to run this chicken chit out fit. If We the people actually started to give a damn about who runs, and h this country is run, I might agree to the idea of widening the governments ability to 'protect' us. As it stands there is more of chance tht pigs will fly than the people actually giving a damn and holding our representatives accountable for their actions. Given the current political landscape and the crooks who are in office right now (both elected and non-elected) I would not trust them to walk your dog much less mine.
 
Until we "sort out" the problem, and find an answer,I suggest that everyone move to Dearborn Michigan.
Dearborn has the largest muslim population in the USA, making it the LAST place that an attack would happen.

Think of it this way. During the "hey day" of the IRA, they NEVER blew up a Irish bar room.

(Hey Dell.....How do you like that analogy..huh ?) :up:
 
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We get what we deserve.

Great quote Garfield. I'll remember that the next time I'm in NYC looking at that hole in the city sky line. Sorry, I forgot! It's not a hole, but rather a mass grave. But what do 3600 plus dead people mean to you? Apparantly nothing.

It's always easier to condem than listen to world views other than one's own. But some folks do indeed care about this troubled world around us, even if the problems appear insurmountable . It's not always about politics. It's about people and the tough decisions they're compelled to make from time to time in a difficult, dangerous world.

'nuff said

Barry
 
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Until we "sort out" the problem, and find an answer,I suggest that everyone move to Dearborn Michigan.
Dearborn has the largest muslim population in the USA, making it the LAST place that an attack would happen.

Think of it this way. During the "hey day" of the IRA, they NEVER blew up a Irish bar room.

Yeah, but what kind of restaurants have they got there? Can you find a good steak? :rolleyes:

The IRA appears benign today, but remember that they had death squads who coerced, kidnapped, and killed their Irish neighbors who voiced views not in synch with the IRA line. Kind of sounds like Iraq at present , but at a lower volume and lower death rate.

No one notices the bad guys until you're unfortuante enough to be standing near one about to go boom.

Barry
 
Great quote Garfield. I'll remember that the next time I'm in NYC looking at that hole in the city sky line. Sorry, I forgot! It's not a hole, but rather a mass grave. But what do 3600 plus dead people mean to you? Apparantly nothing.

It's always easier to condem than listen to world views other than one's own. But some folks do indeed care about this troubled world around us, even if the problems appear insurmountable . It's not always about politics. It's about people and the tough decisions they're compelled to make from time to time in a difficult, dangerous world.

'nuff said

Barry


I must have missed the segue(sp?) between me commenting on the government that we end up with and the link to 9/11 but what ever floats your boat. By the way, not sure where you get that I don't care about the 3,600 that we murdered on 9/11 but you always have had a talent of making crap up. I could just as easily claim that you don't give a rats ass about the 3,600 who died in Iraq and the hundreds more that will die before we call it quits but I don't because I am pretty sure that even though we disagree on issues, neither of us want to see loss of life. So please spare me you little drama plays and stick with issues.

Listening to world views? That's funny. Pretty much the whole world said not to go into Iraq. Hell, even Cheney said not to go into Iraq but no one listened, not even Cheney.

Not sure how a trial against supposed terrorists and advocating a government wit
h few restriction is not about politics. Maybe you can shed a bit of light on that concept.
 
Until we "sort out" the problem, and find an answer,I suggest that everyone move to Dearborn Michigan.
Dearborn has the largest muslim population in the USA, making it the LAST place that an attack would happen.

Think of it this way. During the "hey day" of the IRA, they NEVER blew up a Irish bar room.

(Hey Dell.....How do you like that analogy..huh ?) :up:

I lived in Ypsilanti for 2 years and know all too well of the muslim population there.I would agree that an attack wouldn't happen there but I guarantee they are/will be planned there.I saw dudes working in booze selling convenience stores all over up there in green fatigues that couldn't make change or speak english.Looked to me like a nice way to launder greenbacks.
 
OK, I don't know all that much about laundering money, but most of what I have heard is that a convenience store would not be a good option. IIRC, you need to have a pretty high volume of money going in and out to make laundering a viable option. I could be wrong, it's been a while since I have been in that line of work.
 
A friend managed a distribution center in Columbus,Ohio and this company for some strange reason had a penchant for hiring Somali's....gov't program i'd bet.....well there was pizza shop right next door and all these somali's ,all mind you....cashed their checks at this pizza shop.....well the FBI got them for laundering money for terrorism...and it was on the national news a few years ago.

As to JerseyFinn's comments.....

We must get beyond this political correctness crap and start profiling....period.I believe the rest of the world pretty much does it this way and laugh behind our backs over this.Strip search a little old lady and let three sweating,nervous MI descent guys on is ludicrous at best.

Wiretapping and all.....its a fine line....if it is well intentioned is one thing but its also a door thats once opened will not close...ever....ask Ivan.

Of course if you want to do it right...get everyone to have an in body ID system on the hand or on the forehead so you can track EVERY transaction and track every person all the time.
 
As to JerseyFinn's comments.....

We must get beyond this political correctness crap and start profiling....period.I believe the rest of the world pretty much does it this way and laugh behind our backs over this.

I don't know about the rest of the world dude, france seems to be one up on us with all the PC crap!

http://www.meforum.org/article/337

Of course if you want to do it right...get everyone to have an in body ID system on the hand or on the forehead so you can track EVERY transaction and track every person all the time.

uh oh!....... :eek:
 
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We must get beyond this political correctness crap and start profiling....period

That would mean that they would no longer pull 80 year old white females out the line for extra screening :shock: . Where would Garfield get his vicarious thrills if he's not able to feel up an old granny?

Delldude, you're talking reality but I'm afriad that our politicos and policy wonks on the Hill ( and some folks here ) are more interested in having a pissing contest down B43s neck. The only reassurance that we do have is that one day in the future, reality will indeed hit home when a terror cell gets lucky and skirts the spooks surveiling them because folks fret more about theoretical electronic eavesdropping effects on individual rights. Then the "shocked" libs, whiners, & Bush haters will be lining up to file their civil suits or demand investigations on Capitol Hill.

It's not a question of if . . . it's only a matter of when and where. I myself vote for the French if we have to pass the dirty bomb hot potato around. Though I suspect it will be the UK or USA. What a world we live in.

Barry
 
That would mean that they would no longer pull 80 year old white females out the line for extra screening

So, I have a question. The news has been reporting that recently a person of average build and height has been robbing liquor stores. It is now being reported that this person always wears a mask, always wears a yellow jacket (don't know the sex due to the mask and clothing).

I propose I am that person and I am watching this news broadcast. What do you think I will do? Do you think I am going to wear that yellow jacket to my next robbery? If I am a smart crook, I will change my M.O. so that I will not be caught as easily. Now, this jacket is a very very popular jacket among the youth so I am not the only one wearing this jacket.

What are you going to do to stop me? I would suggest that only stopping people wearing a yellow jacket would be foolish because I might not be wearing that jacket. In fact, I have this really neat blue jacket that I want to wear. I am not saying to ignore anyone with a yellow jacket because I might not be to bright and that yellow jacket might be the only on I have and it bloody cold out there this time of the year. I suggest that this posses a dilemma to law enforcement.

While it may be prudent to pay a little closer attention to folks wearing yellow jackets, to ignore the little old lady or the 5 year old tot, is to give me the robber a huge window of opportunity. I would argue that behaviors, actions and things of that nature may be more telling. That along with sniffer dogs, Physc profilers, professional observers such as ex-law enforcement, Secret Service, Customs etc be employed instead of folks with GED and no security back ground.

Yes it will cost more, a lot more. But if you want to be secure there is a cost. TSA is not the answer, profiling at least the way it seems to be used in this country, is not the answer. I do not believe trampling civil rights is answer.

BTW. Have you ever seen "Mrs Doubtfire"? How hard would that be to pull off?
 
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BTW. Have you ever seen "Mrs Doubtfire"? How hard would that be to pull off?

Yes I have. It was a hilarious movie. Absolutely loved it.

But that's a movie, as in make believe ( which is what Hollywood is in essence ).

We adults here are talking about reality as in ideologically motivated zealon/bigots who are hellbent and determined to attack the western way of life utilizing especially deadly and sinister means. You can go watch the Al Gore narrated version of the movie, we prefer the real world version.

Barry

sorry if this sounds a bit mean, but your circularity of argument has me going in . . . . circles :blink:
 
So are you saying there is no way for a person to be made up to like like someone they are not?

You're not being mean, just an ass. I mentioned Mrs Doubtfire as an example that someone could be made up to look like someone they are not with out much difficulty. Check out a high end drag show if you don't believe me. So while you are looking for the person who looks Arab with a "I'm a terrorist" sigh around their neck, someone else who does not look Arab or a terrorist may actually sneak one by.

Hey, if you want to trust TSA to save your butt, knock your self out. They could not profile their way out of a paper bag.
 
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