McCain: Let weak airlines fail

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On 1/17/2003 9:03:10 PM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 1/16/2003 6:08:38 PM Buck wrote:

Ok that is fair enough. Why has the TWU not used this right to strike in the past? Why Article 33 of the TWU/AA agreement?

ARTICLE 33 – NO STRIKE – NO LOCKOUT
(a) It is the intent of the parties to this Agreement that the procedures set forth in this Agreement will serve as a means of amicable settlement of all disputes that may arise between them, and, therefore:

(1) The Company will neither cause nor permit a lockout during the life of this Agreement; and

(2) Neither the Union nor the employees will engage in a strike, sitdown, walkout,
stoppage, slowdown, or curtailment of work for any reason during the life of this Agreement.

Off Topic: Where did you get your numbers about gun ownership?
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Having a little trouble following the conversation? Why would we go on strike when the agreement has been ratified?
"The reason why we have not used this right is because prior to getting to the point of striking the majority of those who voted on the company's "last best offer" considered the offer acceptable and voted the agreement in."
From the NRA website;
"How many gun owners are there?
While no absolute count is available, it is closely estimated that there are 60-65 million gun owners, 30-35 million of whom own handguns. According to survey research, at least 45% of American households own firearms."

A little bit of fuzzy math there, 65 million is around 23% of 280 million. Of course this is a political lobby so they inflate the numbers in thier favor like most political lobbies, regardless of the positions they represent. The NRA has around 4.5 million members or less than 2% of the population.


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No Bob, I am not having trouble following the conversation. Not any more trouble than you are having getting your message across at UAL.

As for the strike issue, I am speaking in general. You know that there have been times when the strike option has been put forth. I know that you only represent the Local 562 membership and that is where your main interests lie. Here in your beloved TUL, Local 514 produced "Will Strike If Provoked" T-shirts prior to ratification. Of Course the mechanics agreement at NWA had no bearing on the ratification as well as the act of terrorism. How did Burchette put? "It is called Leap Frogging Brother" .

So now that you have deviated from the topic, I would appreciate if you could provide some leadership on this S-1327 issue. What is it that needs to be done to defeat this bill? Maybe we should form a "Single Carrier Coalition" with American Eagle? Then we could have 75,306 voices speaking as one. Maybe then Sen. McCain would listen?
 
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3]Bob Owens:[/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman"][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /][o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman"][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"][/SPAN]I must have missed something, when did Labor succeed in getting the “Striker-Replacement Bill†passed into law?[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman"][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3]You have been on this forum for sometime now banging this loud and boisterous Strike Drum. I would like some details on what issues you are planning this big strike to show Big Business and Government who is in charge?[/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman"][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3][STRONG]DO YOU REMEMBER:[/STRONG][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3][EM]After 686 days on strike against Eastern Airlines, rank- and-file members of the International Association of Machinists (IAM) and our supporters registered the final piece of our victory against the union-busting drive of the employers when the carrier folded at midnight on January 18, 1991.... [/EM][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][FONT face="Times New Roman"][EM]Eastern strikers from coast to coast, from Puerto Rico to Canada, reacted by calling to congratulate each other and going out to airports to celebrate[/EM]. [/FONT][STRONG][SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings"][SPAN style="mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings"]ß[/SPAN][/SPAN][FONT face="Times New Roman"]Would this be you BOB?[/FONT][/STRONG][/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3][EM]Mark McCormick was one of the Eastern strikers who made his way to New York's La Guardia Airport the night of January 18. "I wouldn't have missed this for the world," he said, as he stood watching management personnel walk out. With a big smile on his face, he suggested to the managers that they "take tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow off." [/EM][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3][EM]Over the next few hours, strikers and our supporters showed up - many with handmade signs - at rowdy picket lines. The sign I think expressed our feelings the best was the one at the Miami airport that read, "We said we'd last `One day longer.' "... [/EM][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3][EM]The twenty-two-month strike of the IAM had defeated Eastern's attempt to create a profitable nonunion airline and set an example for all bosses who want a "union-free environment" if they can get away with it. [/EM][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3][STRONG]WHAT I REMEMBER:[/STRONG][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3]I remember the TWU and the AFL-CIO using the Eastern Strike and the PATCO firing by Reagan to create anti-Republican sentiment amongst union workers. The emphasis was placed on the need for passage of a “Striker-Replacement Bill†and was communicated in unprecedented terms. [/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3]Although the “Striker-Replacement Bill†was never passed, you seem to forget about this important piece of fear placed in the members minds when beating your strike drum these days.[/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3]The Eastern Airlines strike happened because Lorenzo believed he could replace his workers if they struck and thus he could extract huge concessions or eliminate them.[SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"] [/SPAN]Never forget, those airline workers were basically forced into a strike by unfair bargaining. And be sure to remember that history repeats itself. [STRONG]I wonder what the outcome of Eastern Airlines would have been if Eastern Management would have been required to seek “Baseball Arbitration� Lorenzo would have been required to arbitrate also, and could not have FORCED the strike.[/STRONG][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][FONT face="Times New Roman"][o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3]Today’s economic environment and state of the airline industry is primed for another Lorenzo versus the Worker battle. And the fact is we still have not changed anything to protect us from that same ominous outcome. [SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"][/SPAN]I am not young enough or financially able to start at the bottom of another carrier’s pay scale and seniority list. So if you don’t mind me saying, your pro-strike, destroy the company propaganda, is not something I wish to endure in real life until more protections are passed.[/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT size=3][FONT color=#000000][FONT face="Times New Roman"][o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"][FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3]I am not defending S-1327, I am pointing out that we still have a weakened strike position as workers because the AFL-CIO strategies of playing money and politics against those with all the money has failed us all.[/FONT][/P]
 
[DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: lightgrey 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: lightgrey 0.75pt solid"][BR][BR][BR]
[P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][FONT color=#000000][STRONG][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"]Something to think about before following Bob Owens to strike/picket duty:[/SPAN][/STRONG][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /][o:p][/o:p][/SPAN][/FONT][BR][BR][BR]
[P style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]In TWA v. Flight Attendants (1989), the Supreme Court held that after a strike settlement, employers need not replace "crossover" workers with returning strikers who have more seniority. A crossover worker is a striker who crosses a picket line to return to work before a strike is settled. Prior to Flight Attendants, strikers maintained their seniority privileges after a strike. A crossover worker who was doing the job previously done by a more senior striker would have to give up the job to the returning worker. Now a striker may permanently lose a job assignment to a less senior crossover. [BR][BR][STRONG]At least with Arbitration you will not lose your job and seniority to scabs and hired replacements or be fired and imprisoned for trying to stop such activity.[/STRONG][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT color=#000000]I believe Buck asked early, "why does the TWU try to protect something that is never used".[BR][BR]Bob Owens went into a diatribe about Gun Ownership, Voter Participation, Nuclear Warhead production, and Life Insurance claims. [o:p][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][BR][BR][BR]
[P style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000][STRONG]There is a damn big difference between the above items and the food on your table![o:p][/o:p][/STRONG][/FONT][/SPAN][BR][BR][BR]
[P style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-border-alt: solid lightgrey .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in"][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"][FONT color=#000000]Bob Owens Quote:[BR][o:p][SPAN class=bodyfont1][SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"]“The reason why we have not used this right is because prior to getting to the point of striking the majority of those who voted on the company's "last best offer" considered the offer acceptable and voted the agreement". [FONT color=#0b3053]Tulsa has usually lead the way. [/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face=Tahoma size=2]Bob, just like yourself, TWU Local 514 constantly propagates fear and politics. Tulsa has more political material mailed to their house and posted in their work place than you would ever imagine. The continued use of fear to get members to vote Democrat creates cowards instead of unionist. Thus, the strike issue is Dead On Arrival before we even exchange section 6 openers. [BR][BR]Want an example? Read this recent masterpiece mailed to every members house:[BR][BR][A href="http://www.air-mechanic.com/images/12232002.jpg" target=_parent]http://www.air-mechanic.com/images/12232002.jpg[/A][BR][/FONT][BR][BR][BR][/SPAN][/SPAN][BR][/o:p][/FONT][/SPAN][/P][/DIV]
 
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On 1/18/2003 6:15:53 PM FA Mikey wrote:

Striking is the ultimate self help option. Losing it diminishes or bargaining power. I am not about to waive it or give it up.
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As I have asked before and will ask you FA Mikey.
Why do we have an article in our contract that we never use in any form. The pilots, the Flight Attendants maybe, but the ground employees controlled by Fleet Service? I do not believe that this article should be used as a negotiating tool by our own unions as a tactic of fear and intimidation. It should be used to show unity and strentgh. The company is not afraid of the ground employees. The right to strike is a tool and should on occasion be used. The ground employees last struck when? 1969? If we as union members want to protect the right to strike, lets make it have teeth. How many of you have contacted Sen. McCain?
 
RV4, roll over and be afraid. Its your right. I have mine and will fight to protect them, my job as well as my working conditions. If there is no economic pressure to put management under. Then there is no need to negotiate. In your scenario we just roll over and take what's offered or shoved down our throats.
 
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/18/2003 6:15:53 PM FA Mikey wrote: [BR][BR]Striking is the ultimate self help option. Losing it diminishes or bargaining power. I am not about to waive it or give it up.----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]What good is bargaining power if you are permantently replaced or crossovers take your job? In the 90's the "striker replacement protection" was the most important item on organized labor's agenda. It was never passed, yet now we are all ready and willing to strike? Or at least act as if we are going to strike? Like I said earlier, with all of your young co-workers laid-off and seeking employment, the industry and ecomomic conditions are prime for another Lorenzo vs. Worker battle to the death of both management and union security. Yes, you might get another job at another carrier, but it will be at the entry pay scale and bottom of a seniority list.[BR][BR]Forced to strike to battle mandatory concessions which leads to replacement or unemployment is not my idea of "bargaining power". Sorry
 
Striking is the ultimate self help option. Losing it diminishes or bargaining power. I am not about to waive it or give it up.
 
Maybe we should all donate 10 hours pay per month to the AFL-CIO political fund so we will at least have a respectable showing in the "who has the most money for politics" game against our employers. I have never understood why we collectively think we can win this contest.[BR][BR]If we are going to rely on politcians for answers then we must give up our paychecks, because money buys access and favors and we are being outspent.[BR][BR]Organized Labor teaches us to rely on politics for strength and solutions while continuing to play by these rules which insure we never win.[BR][BR]Labor History documents advances in our plight while using a strategy of civil disobedience, brave leadership, jail time, and empowerment of the members. [BR][BR]The last 30 years of having a political party/campaign funding ring in our nose has to go down as the biggest failed strategy since labor was given the right to organize.
 
The raise went in to effect Jan 1 as scheduled. APFA is still looking at the books. After that there will be a BOD meeting to decide how to proceed. To rescind the 3% raise as well as the purser pay raise in July, will require a vote by the membership.

APFA is not going to put any economic pressure on AA. There is no reason to. My point is protecting a barging tool. Without the threat of a job action be it 1 day or 100 days. why should the company be serious in negotiations? Even with the threats of a strike, or the strike we carried out. AA is terrible at being fair at the table. They will give 2 new pages of contract language and take out 10 others.
 
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/18/2003 6:51:15 PM FA Mikey wrote: [BR][BR]RV4, roll over and be afraid. Its your right. I have mine and will fight to protect them, my job as well as my working conditions. If there is no economic pressure to put management under. Then there is no need to negotiate. In your scenario we just roll over and take what's offered or shoved down our throats. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Afraid?[BR][BR]I was removed from the Tulsa base for distribution of union literature. I was a plaintiff in a lawsuit against AA for violations of the Railway Labor Act. I lost my union membership rights for three years for attempting to get the mechanics into a better union. I have endured threats to my family and working life. I have had my personal belongings at work damaged and tampered with for trying to make needed changes. I also walked the picket lines at DFW with the F/A's when they struck AA. Where were you? [BR][BR]During the lawsuit above, I was suspected and accused of being involved in actions that apparently inflicted economic hardship to AA. Not one TWU AFL-CIO supporter backed me during this intense time frame and I can assure you that where I work, your methods will not succeed.[BR][BR]When attempting to locate a coward, you are pointing the wrong direction.[BR][BR]I just favor different tactics other than political reliance to get the job done. But until the current labor agenda no longer leaves that type of member out on a limb and ready to be sacrificed, the cowards will be in the majority and I will keep those opinions to myself.
 
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On 1/18/2003 6:51:15 PM FA Mikey wrote:

RV4, roll over and be afraid. Its your right. I have mine and will fight to protect them, my job as well as my working conditions. If there is no economic pressure to put management under. Then there is no need to negotiate. In your scenario we just roll over and take what's offered or shoved down our throats.
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What economic pressure has the TWU ever put the company under? The B-Scale, the C-scale or the SRP classification?
Again if you use the right to strike then it is the proper tool to keep. However if it is not used and becomes rusty, then the company fights to have it removed and the unions believe that something tragic is happening. Mike are you and the other Flight Attendants going to apply economic pressure to the company to get your your wage increase that has just passed you by? Better yet, did you get your raise?
 
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On 1/18/2003 7:43:22 PM FA Mikey wrote:

The raise went in to effect Jan 1 as scheduled. APFA is still looking at the books. After that there will be a BOD meeting to decide how to proceed. To rescind the 3% raise as well as the purser pay raise in July, will require a vote by the membership.

APFA is not going to put any economic pressure on AA. There is no reason to. My point is protecting a barging tool. Without the threat of a job action be it 1 day or 100 days. why should the company be serious in negotiations? Even with the threats of a strike, or the strike we carried out. AA is terrible at being fair at the table. They will give 2 new pages of contract language and take out 10 others.
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Again I can see protecting a bargaining tool that we are going to use. Since 1983, we have not accomplish very much in the way collective bargaining gains. If we are to retain this tool, it is going to take a massive call in campaign to our own congressmen and especially Sen. McCain. Threats can be fine if you are able to actually back them. But I have little faith in the membership or leadership of the TWU to get us to that point. Again I commend you and your union for using the tool known as the right to strike. But it will surprise me if the TWU ever finds itself in the position to use it. They might have to give up some dues payers in the process. This cannot be allowed. Mike, do you know the difference between the union of the ground employees and the Flight Attendants and Pilots?
 
Well WNP, I believe you have lost the respect of many on this web site for your comments about our brave young men and women in the military. Would you like to apologize? It takes a big man to admit his mistakes. This time I think you should have a little humility.
 
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On 1/18/2003 7:01:33 PM RV4 wrote:

Maybe we should all donate 10 hours pay per month to the AFL-CIO political fund so we will at least have a respectable showing in the "who has the most money for politics" game against our employers. I have never understood why we collectively think we can win this contest.

If we are going to rely on politcians for answers then we must give up our paychecks, because money buys access and favors and we are being outspent.

Organized Labor teaches us to rely on politics for strength and solutions while continuing to play by these rules which insure we never win.

Labor History documents advances in our plight while using a strategy of civil disobedience, brave leadership, jail time, and empowerment of the members.

The last 30 years of having a political party/campaign funding ring in our nose has to go down as the biggest failed strategy since labor was given the right to organize.
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And how was the right to organize won? Through legislation!

While I agree that the Labor Movement has abandoned its most successful methods of engagement, civil disobedience, brave leadership, jail time, and empowerment of the members, in other words strikes job actions etc, for an over reliance on the political system, to some how believe that even the early unionists chose to avoid the political arena is naive. With the exception of some misguided quotes from Samuel Gompers Unionists have always known that legislation is a key to long-term success for working people. The other methods were a necessity when access to the political arena was denied. What the Labor movement has failed to realize is that because they are outspent by 12 to 1 that their access is for all intensive purposes, Denied. I agree that we can not outspend our opponents and COPE would be better spent supporting educating on a more grassroots level. Unreliable "friends" are unfortunately rewarded because they are considered the lesser of two evils. The fact is that the ruling class, regardless of whether they ride the donkey or the elephant simply laugh at Labor as a toothless Tiger. It can roar, on occasion, but it wont bite. Its time, to go back to our roots. Its time to bite again. We cannot rely on the legal system to defend our rights. We must defend them by engaging in the same activities that won those rights in the first place. We cannot pass laws, we cannot make them pass laws; what we can do is just STOP. Stop supplying our labor. Despite all thier power they still need us. When we strike for political vs economic motives, such as to protect our rights our leaders are put in an awkward position. As the leader of the “freeâ€￾ world how can they justify fines, imprisonment or other penalties in response to non-violent political expression?
 
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On 1/18/2003 9:28:03 PM Buck wrote:


Mike, do you know the difference between the union of the ground employees and the Flight Attendants and Pilots?
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Not sure I do. I know the difference in that pilots, and mechanics have FAA license's. That flight attendants have a standard crew minimum, as well as a set number of trained hours. That provides theses people with some breathing room in negotiations and the threat of replacement.

I know that the flight attendants were once part of the TWU. From my NY friends said that the TWU was a very male dominated organization that didn't care to spend much time or energy in fighting for the rights and working conditions of flight attendants. When the AFA organizers were close to making their move. The oppositions main argument against leaving was the strength in numbers.
 

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