New book about AA’s trip through BK out soon.

[Kev3188]

I know many here lived (or are living) it, but I thought this might be of interest just the same:

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburn...an-airlines-choppy-flight-through-bankruptcy/

 

[WeAAsles]

I know many here lived (or are living) it, but I thought this might be of interest just the same:

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburn...an-airlines-choppy-flight-through-bankruptcy/

Terry Maxon was a friend and huge assist with information throughout those terrible years. Just the fact he has any involvement at all in this book makes it highly recommendable to me.

 

[jimntx]

Was there something else we needed to know other than the company had $5 billion in the bank when they entered bankruptcy and the sole purpose of the BK was to terminate the pension plans and abrogate the union contracts? Note this quote from the author instructing someone in Arpey's office to give Maxon the story that we were filing for BK. "Give him the story, because he’s going to run it. We’d rather him run it with our spin on it than just doing it on his own.” (Emphasis mine.)

I'm drawing the princely sum of $630/month from the frozen flight attendant plan (frozen plan, not frozen flight attendant ) because it is calculated as if I left the company at age 60 on November 29, 2011 (I think that's the correct calculation date). I left the company at age 72 on November 30, 2017. Not judgin'. Just sayin'.

P.S. Yes, I know that there are some employees who get zero from their pension plans. Focus now. We're talking about me.

 

[eolesen]

I'm acquainted with Terry at arms length, and there's nobody better to write a book on AA. IIRC, he followed not only AA but also Southwest for his three decades on the beat. The only other person I'd put at the same level of respect is David Johnson from KRLD who was the defacto expert on the Braniff bankruptcy.

As for getting information directly on the bankruptcy filing... it's CorpComm's job to manage the relationships with the people who write about you. Terry's smart enough to see thru the spin. That was the nice thing about the DMN -- they recognized that aviation was different from a standard business beat. Not so much anymore.

 

[MetalMover]

I'm acquainted with Terry at arms length, and there's nobody better to write a book on AA. IIRC, he followed not only AA but also Southwest for his three decades on the beat. The only other person I'd put at the same level of respect is David Johnson from KRLD who was the defacto expert on the Braniff bankruptcy.

As for getting information directly on the bankruptcy filing... it's CorpComm's job to manage the relationships with the people who write about you. Terry's smart enough to see thru the spin. That was the nice thing about the DMN -- they recognized that aviation was different from a standard business beat. Not so much anymore.

I wonder how much of the book is dedicated to labor being the problem.

 

[swamt]

Was there something else we needed to know other than the company had $5 billion in the bank when they entered bankruptcy and the sole purpose of the BK was to terminate the pension plans and abrogate the union contracts? Note this quote from the author instructing someone in Arpey's office to give Maxon the story that we were filing for BK. "Give him the story, because he’s going to run it. We’d rather him run it with our spin on it than just doing it on his own.” (Emphasis mine.)

I'm drawing the princely sum of $630/month from the frozen flight attendant plan (frozen plan, not frozen flight attendant ) because it is calculated as if I left the company at age 60 on November 29, 2011 (I think that's the correct calculation date). I left the company at age 72 on November 30, 2017. Not judgin'. Just sayin'.

P.S. Yes, I know that there are some employees who get zero from their pension plans. Focus now. We're talking about me.

Disclaimer; I only read the first sentence and selected agreed...

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I have read a few teasers from the book and it looks to me that this book will portray Carty, Arpey and Horton as heroes. Carty is quoted as saying the cuts in 2003 were the right thing to do but they didn't go deep enough. Of course they didn't go deep enough because management never had to deal with anything other than pay cuts that amounted to pennies while we got gutted. I will not waste any time or money on this book. I know what happened and I know Carty, Arpey and Horton were nothing more than morally bankrupt pirates who took advantage of threats, weak unions and the bankruptcy laws to get what they never should have been able to get. Anything that portrays these bastards in any other light is fiction. I hope karma comes back to haunt these scumbags and all of their minions who shared in the theft. What they did should be a crime but instead it is looked at with envy by other pirates. They are rich beyond many's wildest dreams but they are still the scum of the earth. I hope they all rot in hell.

 

[eolesen]

Terry's a fairly reasonable guy and not one to shill for management, so maybe you should read it for a fairly neutral view vs. what the company and union were feeding you as propaganda.

Perhaps you don't want to read it because you might come to the conclusion that had the unions worked with management, the bankruptcy wouldn't have been necessary, you'd still have your pensions today, and Tom Horton would never have become president let alone CEO?...

Nope, far better to keep your head in the sand, old guy. That way you'll remain uneducated on what happened and be bound to repeat history over and over. The company is counting on that.

 

[gulfcoast1]

Terry's a fairly reasonable guy and not one to shill for management, so maybe you should read it for a fairly neutral view vs. what the company and union were feeding you as propaganda.

Perhaps you don't want to read it because you might come to the conclusion that had the unions worked with management, the bankruptcy wouldn't have been necessary, you'd still have your pensions today, and Tom Horton would never have become president let alone CEO?...

Nope, far better to keep your head in the sand, old guy. That way you'll remain uneducated on what happened and be bound to repeat history over and over. The company is counting on that.

There was no way any of the unions were going to work with the company on a second round of concessions to avoid bankruptcy after the first round. There was plenty of blame to go around, but the majority of it lies on management.

Management knew that all the unions were VERY upset after the management bonuses were revealed shortly after the first round of concessions. The unions were very vocal about this during the 8 years between 2003 and 2011.

I am not taking a position on whether the bonuses were right or wrong although they certainly looked wrong to nearly all non-management employees. If management thought there was any possibility they might need further concessions, they should have reduced or eliminated the bonuses.

What I am saying is that management should have known starting in 2003 that by continuing to take the bonuses they could never approach the unions again for any major concessions. They should have known that their 2003 action plan had better work or it would be bankruptcy. They are paid a lot of money to think ahead and know these things. If they did not know this or chose to ignore it does not matter that much.

They chose to continue taking the bonuses knowing that doing so would mean no more concessions. This was what ended any possibility of further concessions and this lies solely at the feet of management.

 

[WeAAsles]

Terry's a fairly reasonable guy and not one to shill for management, so maybe you should read it for a fairly neutral view vs. what the company and union were feeding you as propaganda.

Perhaps you don't want to read it because you might come to the conclusion that had the unions worked with management, the bankruptcy wouldn't have been necessary, you'd still have your pensions today, and Tom Horton would never have become president let alone CEO?...

Nope, far better to keep your head in the sand, old guy. That way you'll remain uneducated on what happened and be bound to repeat history over and over. The company is counting on that.

Considering all the other bad debt that AMR was holding on its books, Bankruptcy was more than likely inevitable. You should also read the book and as we both believe Terry is a reasonable guy it should spread the financial situations in all areas where it actually belongs.

At that time Labor was only one expense and not the Airlines largest. (It is now though)

 

[eolesen]

There was no way any of the unions were going to work with the company on a second round of concessions to avoid bankruptcy after the first round. There was plenty of blame to go around, but the majority of it lies on management.

Agree, and they should have worked on something more structural back in 2003. The TWU should have never saved jobs at the expense of wages, but they did. APA did the same by choosing scope over pay.

I am not taking a position on whether the bonuses were right or wrong although they certainly looked wrong to nearly all non-management employees. If management thought there was any possibility they might need further concessions, they should have reduced or eliminated the bonuses.

At least use the right terms here... Executives knew they were wrong.

The majority of management didn't get those PUP bonuses. Certainly nobody in L1-L4 and most L5's didn't participate in that plan.

Blurring the definition is like me calling mechanics rampers. Same payroll type ,but far different skillsets and roles.

Considering all the other bad debt that AMR was holding on its books, Bankruptcy was more than likely inevitable. You should also read the book and as we both believe Terry is a reasonable guy it should spread the financial situations in all areas where it actually belongs.

We'll disagree on the debt, and I do plan to buy the book once I have the time to read it.

 

[bob@las-AA]

Why the interest in this book, I mean really, at the end of the day, we all still arrive here. I sure some will clinch their fist and say "I knew it" , or "I told you so", but that still brings us here. What would change after learning these earth shattering tidbits of what was happening behind the scenes.

 

[WeAAsles]

Why the interest in this book, I mean really, at the end of the day, we all still arrive here. I sure some will clinch their fist and say "I knew it" , or "I told you so", but that still brings us here. What would change after learning these earth shattering tidbits of what was happening behind the scenes.

For some of us it’s to show support and maybe say thank you to Terry Maxon as his articles were a tremendous source of information. Also even if some wind up believing the book is skewed too far in Managements favor or perspective what’s wrong with hearing out that side? Better than being close minded.

 

[NYer]

Terry's a fairly reasonable guy and not one to shill for management, so maybe you should read it for a fairly neutral view vs. what the company and union were feeding you as propaganda.

Perhaps you don't want to read it because you might come to the conclusion that had the unions worked with management, the bankruptcy wouldn't have been necessary, you'd still have your pensions today, and Tom Horton would never have become president let alone CEO?...

Nope, far better to keep your head in the sand, old guy. That way you'll remain uneducated on what happened and be bound to repeat history over and over. The company is counting on that.

Most people's mind are made up as to what happened and any explanation, at this point, will be met with skepticism of the facts. Most start the process in 2003, when it actually started in 2001 and they fast forward through the 2004-2006 time period which contributed to the 2011 BK and those years also include the reasons why the 2003 concessions didn't work as advertised.

It's easier to say management sucks and the unions suck too. Facts are not relevant in emotional reasoning.

 

[gulfcoast1]

Most people's mind are made up as to what happened and any explanation, at this point, will be met with skepticism of the facts. Most start the process in 2003, when it actually started in 2001 and they fast forward through the 2004-2006 time period which contributed to the 2011 BK and those years also include the reasons why the 2003 concessions didn't work as advertised.

It's easier to say management sucks and the unions suck too. Facts are not relevant in emotional reasoning.

The reason I say most of the blame lies with management is because almost all non-management employees were very upset when they found out about the bonuses. Executives tried for years to explain that the bonuses were justified but the rank and file never agreed and stayed mad. Whether or not the anger of the rank and file was justified does not matter much. They were mad and the company knew it.

That means management knew that either their turnaround plan had to work or it would be bankruptcy. They created the anger and they let it simmer. They chose to keep the bonus plan going as it was knowing that by doing so, they were boxed in to making the turnaround work with no further help from labor. That is why I think most of it is their fault although again there was a lot of blame to go around.

If the company thought for a minute, which they should have, that they might need more concessions, then they should have revisited the bonus program.