Obama: 'War In Iraq Is Over'; All Troops Will Withdraw By Year's End

[SparrowHawk]

Your Libertarian "principles" are ameoba like.

So it's name calling now instead of a response?

We don't require a Middle East presence beyond our embassies and any of the CIA "spook" types needed to keep us informed. The US needs a smaller footprint around the world.

Does anyone really think that Iran would even attempt to deliver a nuclear weapon once they finish making ONE?

The simple most effective way to deal with the region is not to. When the US and Europe become energy independent the Middle East becomes irrelevant politically and economically.

IMO, the Republican candidates are missing the boat by not calling for Energy Independence in 10 years like JFK did with having a man on the moon. It's that important from a world peace point of view. Think!!!! If we were to instantly stop buying oil on the world market what would happen? Couple of examples might be:

Collapse of the world market causing most of the Middle East to suffer economically
Hugo Chavez and others like him would be neutralized financially and politically
In Countries like Libya the dictator would be overthrown without so much as a NATO round being discharged in anger.

I'm not advocating an isolationist foreign policy, in fact just the opposite. A robust foreign policy based upon the notion set forth by Thomas Jefferson. Trade with all, alliances with none. If we engage the world as a Salesman would, then I think we do a lot of good things. You don't promote Freedom and Liberty at the end of a gun barrel as we did in Iraq. You say, "Look how well things are in the US because of Freedom & Liberty, would you like us to show you how it's done?"

The business end of a gun should only be used in the preservation of liberty

 

[xUT]

If you listen to the interview Cheney gave in 1994 he spells out why Bush Sr. Did not take out Sadam. As much as I despise Cheney,he bit it dead on in that interview. What I do not understand is why he did and about face in 2003. Everything he said in the 94 interview came true with the invasion of 2003.

And when Clinton wanted to pressure Saddam over WMD inspections, he was wagging the dog...

 

[Ms Tree]

I think the answer is simple. The events of 9/11 played a huge part. As a nation we had an intense desire to "Do Something" to retaliate. An idea that I think everyone can support at least in concept. This nation and the vast majority of the people in it wanted to fight back and fight back hard.

Afghanistan. That's where OBL was and that was where the Taliban was. Bush had ADD and could not keep focused.

As a result, the old saying "When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail" concept took over. I mean if you have the largest most powerful military in the world what fun is it it to not use them? So we did and instead of the Middle East countries saying "Oh thanks for introducing us to Freedom and Liberty" they flipped us the bird. Which if you think about it for a minute was bound to happen.

This had nothing to do with hammer and nail in my opinion. Iraq was a calculated and premeditated attempt to get into the ME and gain a bigger foot hold. The Bush administration lied through their teeth to get what they wanted. Cheney knew it would fail from day one. He know it in 94 and he know it in 03 and just did not give a damn about the lives that would be lost. Why he did it I do not know. My cynicism says there was something in it for him. Whether it was financial, ego or arrogance I have no idea. As far as I am concerned he/they are responsible for the death of 5,000 US soldiers and who knows how many Iraqi civilians.

It would not have even taken a second much less a minute to figure out that nation building in the ME would not work. If the people want it, they will rise up as they did in Egypt, Libya and else where. What they replace their despots with is up to them, not us.

The simplest, best way to solve our "Middle East Problem" is to withdraw from the region and become energy independent. If we don't have to buy oil from the region or from out of the US they can take their prayer rugs, bow towards Mecca and hop on their camel and back to a tribal lifestyle. Bye we hardly knew ya

On this we agree. The oil companies will fight it tooth and nail and they have very deep deep pockets. The people need to start demanding public transportation in the major cities and smaller more fuel efficient vehicles. The only way that happens is with a gradual increase to fuel costs. Americans are reactionary, not proactive.

 

[Ms Tree]

So it's name calling now instead of a response?

We don't require a Middle East presence beyond our embassies and any of the CIA "spook" types needed to keep us informed. The US needs a smaller footprint around the world.

Does anyone really think that Iran would even attempt to deliver a nuclear weapon once they finish making ONE?

The simple most effective way to deal with the region is not to. When the US and Europe become energy independent the Middle East becomes irrelevant politically and economically.

IMO, the Republican candidates are missing the boat by not calling for Energy Independence in 10 years like JFK did with having a man on the moon. It's that important from a world peace point of view. Think!!!! If we were to instantly stop buying oil on the world market what would happen? Couple of examples might be:

Collapse of the world market causing most of the Middle East to suffer economically
Hugo Chavez and others like him would be neutralized financially and politically
In Countries like Libya the dictator would be overthrown without so much as a NATO round being discharged in anger.

I'm not advocating an isolationist foreign policy, in fact just the opposite. A robust foreign policy based upon the notion set forth by Thomas Jefferson. Trade with all, alliances with none. If we engage the world as a Salesman would, then I think we do a lot of good things. You don't promote Freedom and Liberty at the end of a gun barrel as we did in Iraq. You say, "Look how well things are in the US because of Freedom & Liberty, would you like us to show you how it's done?"

The business end of a gun should only be used in the preservation of liberty

I do not think Iran is foolish enough to do it. They want one just to be able to say they have one. Ahmadinejad is a mouth piece. He cannot fart with out the permission of the Mullah's. They want to live just as much as the next guy. They know if a nuke leaves their soil and goes boom any where in the world, that Iran will cease to exist. They may want to meet their virgins, but they do not want to meet them right now.

Now if you want to talk about that little midget in MK you might have something there but even their I have a hunch that you won't find a general to hit the button either. They like their trappings of power as fleeting as they might be but they like to live too. They know that Pyongyang will be turned into a glass table if a nuke flies out of there.

The RNC is not calling for it for the same reason the DNC is not doing it. It would require too much sacrifice from the US population. No one wants to give up their trucks and sport cars. No one wants to put a family in a realistic sized house. The latest data I could find stated that in 2007 the average house size in the US was 2,700 sq ft. That's AVERAGE people. Think about that. Until the people in the US are willing to make some sacrifices, the idea of energy independence is a pipe dream.

I think they see how freedom and liberty has worked in the US, that is why they do not want it. The will take bits and pieces perhaps but what we have in the US does not work all that well.

 

[xUT]

Afghanistan. That's where OBL was and that was where the Taliban was. Bush had ADD and could not keep focused.

He was focused, but not on OBL. He and dick wanted Saddam. Nothing else would matter.

This had nothing to do with hammer and nail in my opinion. Iraq was a calculated and premeditated attempt to get into the ME and gain a bigger foot hold. The Bush administration lied through their teeth to get what they wanted. Cheney knew it would fail from day one. He know it in 94 and he know it in 03 and just did not give a damn about the lives that would be lost. Why he did it I do not know. My cynicism says there was something in it for him. Whether it was financial, ego or arrogance I have no idea. As far as I am concerned he/they are responsible for the death of 5,000 US soldiers and who knows how many Iraqi civilians.

Think 'Haliburton'. Single source, no bid contractor. Raped us of billions (in money, thousands in lives).

It would not have even taken a second much less a minute to figure out that nation building in the ME would not work. If the people want it, they will rise up as they did in Egypt, Libya and else where. What they replace their despots with is up to them, not us.

Maybe, Gaddafi raised literacy from 5 to 90%. If he were the despot portrayed, would it not be in his best interest to keep the masses ignorant?

B) xUT

(Edited by Me: illiteracy should be literacy, My Bad... )

 

[xUT]

I do not think Iran is foolish enough to do it. They want one just to be able to say they have one. Ahmadinejad is a mouth piece. He cannot fart with out the permission of the Mullah's. They want to live just as much as the next guy. They know if a nuke leaves their soil and goes boom any where in the world, that Iran will cease to exist. They may want to meet their virgins, but they do not want to meet them right now.

No one knows for certain if Iran would send a nuke (of some kind) to US soil. But I wouldn't depend on the Mullahs to be the determining factor for rational thinking. A couple of 'ALL-AAH AKBAR' and JIHAD AGAINST THE AMERICAN SUPPRESSORS" and boom. Really a no brainier.
Maybe if we denounced our support of Israel, we will get a temporary pass, but it is inevitable.

Now if you want to talk about that little midget in MK you might have something there but even their I have a hunch that you won't find a general to hit the button either. They like their trappings of power as fleeting as they might be but they like to live too. They know that Pyongyang will be turned into a glass table if a nuke flies out of there.

You are totally ill informed. NK is a 'totalitarian' state and if Kim Jong Il (or his son) would give an order, it would be carried out, even to death. They will let their people starve before capitulation, or did you miss the memo?

I think they see how freedom and liberty has worked in the US, that is why they do not want it. The will take bits and pieces perhaps but what we have in the US does not work all that well.

Then, why do they risk life and limb to come here?
B) xUT

 

[Ms Tree]

He was focused, but not on OBL. He and dick wanted Saddam. Nothing else would matter.



Think 'Haliburton'. Single source, no bid contractor. Raped us of billions (in money, thousands in lives).



Maybe, Gaddafi raised literacy from 5 to 90%. If he were the despot portrayed, would it not be in his best interest to keep the masses ignorant?

B) xUT

(Edited by Me: illiteracy should be literacy, My Bad... )

1 and 2 can definitely be supported buy an abundance of anecdotal evidence.

As for literacy, perhaps. Do a search for the crap he did to folks he did not care for. Gaddafi was a megalomaniac. I am not sure the regular standards of measurement apply to him. Some have argued that he thought he was loved by his people till the very end. Who knows. He is gone and all I can say is good ridence (sp?).

No one knows for certain if Iran would send a nuke (of some kind) to US soil. But I wouldn't depend on the Mullahs to be the determining factor for rational thinking. A couple of 'ALL-AAH AKBAR' and JIHAD AGAINST THE AMERICAN SUPPRESSORS" and boom. Really a no brainier.
Maybe if we denounced our support of Israel, we will get a temporary pass, but it is inevitable.



You are totally ill informed. NK is a 'totalitarian' state and if Kim Jong Il (or his son) would give an order, it would be carried out, even to death. They will let their people starve before capitulation, or did you miss the memo?



Then, why do they risk life and limb to come here?
B) xUT

I do not think the mullahs are idiots. They want to live. They have a very good life and I do not think they are as religious as most would believe. I doubt they will launch. No, I do not know that they won't any more than you know they will.

NK is no different than Iran in terms of being totalitarian. Self preservation is an interesting thing. They all know that if they launch they and their families will die. That can make a person think twice.

They risk life and limb because it is better than what they have. Look at where they are coming from and where they are not coming from. Are there a lot of western Europeans or Canadians risking life and lib to get to the US or is it mainly people from third world countries?

 

[xUT]

1 and 2 can definitely be supported buy an abundance of anecdotal evidence.

As for literacy, perhaps. Do a search for the crap he did to folks he did not care for. Gaddafi was a megalomaniac. I am not sure the regular standards of measurement apply to him. Some have argued that he thought he was loved by his people till the very end. Who knows. He is gone and all I can say is good ridence (sp?).

What is 1 and 2?
Who is not a megalomaniac in our political system?
Without the help of NATO, he would still be in power.
Is that good or bad?

I do not think the mullahs are idiots. They want to live. They have a very good life and I do not think they are as religious as most would believe. I doubt they will launch. No, I do not know that they won't any more than you know they will.

Then you need to get out a little more. Mullahs live an austere life and shun worldly possessions.
If you believe that they are like Jim and Tammy then you are foolish.
I lived in SA for two and a half years, talked to Mullahs and seen how they live.
What is your basis for your 'hypothesis'?

NK is no different than Iran in terms of being totalitarian. Self preservation is an interesting thing. They all know that if they launch they and their families will die. That can make a person think twice.

You will never understand the mindset of NK leadership and the people. People live in abject poverty (except for the ruling class) and have been trained since birth to follow orders, or die.

B) xUT

 

[Ms Tree]

What is 1 and 2?
Who is not a megalomaniac in our political system?
Without the help of NATO, he would still be in power.
Is that good or bad?



Then you need to get out a little more. Mullahs live an austere life and shun worldly possessions.
If you believe that they are like Jim and Tammy then you are foolish.
I lived in SA for two and a half years, talked to Mullahs and seen how they live.
What is your basis for your 'hypothesis'?



You will never understand the mindset of NK leadership and the people. People live in abject poverty (except for the ruling class) and have been trained since birth to follow orders, or die.

B) xUT

First and second point of the post I responded too.

When were you in Iran visiting the Mullahs? What did you guys talk about? Seriously, I'm dying to know.

I never said they lived like royalty but they surely do not live like paupers and from what I have read they live far better than the average Iranian. The Mullahs you spoke with did not rule a country. The standards of living are a bit different for the ruling class.

Wow, you were in NK as well. Do tell. Was it interesting? Thank you for the clarification Cpt Obvious.

Again, when it comes to pressing a button to launch a nuke when you know that a retaliation will destroy your entire country along with your family and loved ones, that has a tendency to change ones perspective. Perhaps they will find some one to push the button, perhaps not. Neither of us know for certain so stop pretending like you have all the answers. I am merely giving an opinion. It is no more or less valid than yours.

 

[delldude]

Does anyone really think that Iran would even attempt to deliver a nuclear weapon once they finish making ONE?


The simple most effective way to deal with the region is not to. When the US and Europe become energy independent the Middle East becomes irrelevant politically and economically.

That's the goal.

There should be no doubt, absent a regime change that tosses both its clerics and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad out of power, Tehran’s nuclear program will continue until the mullahs possess a weapon of mass destruction. There should be no doubt, there is no diplomatic action that will cause Tehran to voluntarily suspend this program. There should be no doubt, had there ever been a chance for diplomacy to work, it no longer does, as Tehran fears NATO’s actions in Libya to topple an Arab tyrant may be applied to topple a Persian one. And there should be no doubt, based on the cultist beliefs of Iran’s clerics and president, once Iran acquires a nuclear weapon, these men will not hesitate to use it in fulfillment of their self-proclaimed destiny to prepare for the 12th Imam’s return.

Link

 

[xUT]

from what I have read

 

[Ms Tree]

from what I have read

As opposed to your first hand experience in Iran and NK?

 

[delldude]

As opposed to your first hand experience in Iran and NK?

What if what he says is true?

 

[Ms Tree]

What if the world is flat? We are both rendering opinions. He has nothing to back it up other than what he has read or heard unless he is claiming he has been to both Iran and NK and spoken with their state leaders. I am operating under the assumption that he has not done so unless he offers proof. So his opinion is based on things that he read as well. OH my.

If what he says is true then we are all in quite a bit of trouble and as far as Iran is concerned there is not much we can do about it. NK is a ant hill. They have a massive army but they are poorly trained and equipped. It has been argued that given a conflict there would be massive defections. No way to know what that little midget and his generals will do when cornered. China needs to step in and control their unruly child.

 

[delldude]

What if the world is flat? We are both rendering opinions. He has nothing to back it up other than what he has read or heard unless he is claiming he has been to both Iran and NK and spoken with their state leaders. I am operating under the assumption that he has not done so unless he offers proof. So his opinion is based on things that he read as well. OH my.

If what he says is true then we are all in quite a bit of trouble and as far as Iran is concerned there is not much we can do about it. NK is a ant hill. They have a massive army but they are poorly trained and equipped. It has been argued that given a conflict there would be massive defections. No way to know what that little midget and his generals will do when cornered. China needs to step in and control their unruly child.

He said he was in SA which isn't San Antonio......SA and Iran are two separate countries.

A mullah isn't always a state leader. Go to any mosque and you can find a mullah.

I know from reading and documentaries I've seen NK is about as he claims. Eating worms and so on....I think CBS/NBC had some stories maybe on 60 minutes, or dateline....something like that.

The Iran thing.....they get a nuke, its inbound for Israel no if's, ands or buts. The Ayatollah and that little clown both subscribe to the 12th Mahdi thing....the little clown is all over the media about accelerating the return of the 12th Imam through creating global chaos so the Imam will return and they can spread Islam the world over...Look it up......

Israel knows this.....and they are soon going to have to do something......take it to the bank.

Obama wanted to 'talk' little clown give him the bird.....now what?

Sanctions are a joke.