Time to Change the Railway Labor Act!

[Boomer]

Be careful in asking for things that management has always sought: Carty gave several speeches to the airline industry wherein he laid out the air carrier position in changing or removing the airlines from the RLA labor management relationship.

As it stands now, two things must be changed :
1) the reality that an air carrier can backdoor the entire RLA through Sect. 1113 of the Bankruptcy Court and impose a contract on an RLA Union, thus changing the status quo requirement, but still hold the Union to the RLA status quo; and,
2) regulatory time limits on the NMB which will move the process along after the parties have agreed to NMB Mediation.

Fix those two items in a labor friendly manner.

 

[eolesen]

I didn't know we ship coal or taconite by planes?

Uh, you were the one implying that shippers in a rail strike could divert to trucks... that's why the RLA was created in the first place -- to avoid a good chunk of the nation's commerce from becoming a pawn in labor relations.

60 years ago, you had a very regulated environment for airlines, and there wasn't freedom to serve any market an airline wanted to. Thus, the RLA was applied.

Today in a deregulated environment, that argument is rendered moot.

Give examples of labor's windfall benefits with the RLA? As compared to benefits to business, specifically airlines?

Do you think our union is benefitting by AA's stall tactics and NMB's biased opinions?

I don't think anyone would deny there's a long history of pattern bargaining by unions in the airline industry. The problem you guys are facing is that it's not working to your benefit anymore, and hasn't worked for the past 10 years because bankruptcies reset the benchmark...

And frankly, I get tired of people calling the NMB biased. It's one step above declaring any judge who disagrees with you as being crooked. The board is comprised of political appointees looking to avoid any embarrassment for the guy who put them in their job.

The mediators are another story. These are career mediators, and not tied to the politics of any administration. They've probably seen more BS and posturing from both sides of the negotiating table than any other entity in the industry. If they're not convinced that a real impasse exists, I'd bet my money on their opinion.

 

[FWAAA]

The NMB and the RLA don't seem to be any impediment to decent pay rates and work rules of nearly all the employees at WN or the pilots and mechanics at FedEx or UPS, so I don't think the legal structure that governs negotiations is the problem.

As is to be expected, employees of money-making companies tend to do better than employees of money-losers. Stop the Presses!

 

[Hopeful]

As is to be expected, employees of money-making companies tend to do better than employees of money-losers. Stop the Presses!

I don't hear FEDEX or UPS or SWA blaming their higher paid employees for anything unlike AA.

 

[strikeforce]

I don't think anyone would deny there's a long history of pattern bargaining by unions in the airline industry. The problem you guys are facing is that it's not working to your benefit anymore, and hasn't worked for the past 10 years because bankruptcies reset the benchmark...

And frankly, I get tired of people calling the NMB biased. It's one step above declaring any judge who disagrees with you as being crooked. The board is comprised of political appointees looking to avoid any embarrassment for the guy who put them in their job.

What the hell does pattern bargaining have to do with the RLA, and how airlines use the RLA to stretch out negotiations because they know labor can't strike?

pattern bargaining happens in all professions, union and non-union. how else can workers base their compensation demands. it happens in sports....been happening in the auto industry for decades....even CEO's base their compensation from their peers. it's no different in the airline industry.

Don't ALL companies base their compensation offers from what their competitors pay similar employees?

maybe applying deadlines or penalties on the carriers & labor will move things along?

My point is....according to the RLA disputes and grievances are to be settled "promptly", and that's hasn't been the case in the airline industry. Negotiations last for years. Grievances can take up to a year to settle in arbitration.
So, how has this helped labor?

A serious consequence of stalled negotiations is that economic conditions can change over the years, and thus affect labor or the carriers bargaining position. In my 20+ years at AA, the economic conditions always favored AA over labor, except for the 2001 agreement. During that time airlines couldn't hide the billions in profits, so they had no choice but to pay our demands. BTW, thanks to AMFA, that was possible.

 

[strikeforce]

The NMB and the RLA don't seem to be any impediment to decent pay rates and work rules of nearly all the employees at WN or the pilots and mechanics at FedEx or UPS, so I don't think the legal structure that governs negotiations is the problem.

As is to be expected, employees of money-making companies tend to do better than employees of money-losers. Stop the Presses!

Money losing companies, such as AA, use the RLA as leverage in order to achieve cost neutral or concessionary agreements from labor. They play the waiting game knowing full well that after 8 years of concessions desperation may take over, and WE might bite at more concessionary deals. They can do this because the RLA allows it, and it doesn't cost the company a dime for playing these games.

Now, would you characterize these negotiations as "bargaining in good faith", by AA? I certainly wouldn't. Just games!

There's too much BAD blood between management and AMT's. There's no respect! No trust! Total Mis-management! Now you know why there's NO deal!

Maybe, just maybe, that's the reason Wall Street Analysts are questioning AMR's business practices, too?

I don't know about you, but the only ones that know the real deal about AMR, and AA are the 85,000 employees. It's a poorly run company....Lots of management...No accountability.....lots of waste....squandered $1.6B from employees! A miracle we're still in business!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Money losing companies, such as AA, use the RLA as leverage in order to achieve cost neutral or concessionary agreements from labor. They play the waiting game knowing full well that after 8 years of concessions desperation may take over, and WE might bite at more concessionary deals. They can do this because the RLA allows it, and it doesn't cost the company a dime for playing these games.

Now, would you characterize these negotiations as "bargaining in good faith", by AA? I certainly wouldn't. Just games!

There's too much BAD blood between management and AMT's. There's no respect! No trust! Total Mis-management! Now you know why there's NO deal!

Maybe, just maybe, that's the reason Wall Street Analysts are questioning AMR's business practices, too?

I don't know about you, but the only ones that know the real deal about AMR, and AA are the 85,000 employees. It's a poorly run company....Lots of management...No accountability.....lots of waste....squandered $1.6B from employees! A miracle we're still in business!

Never waste your time trying to explain to the "experts" who, by their own admission, do not nor have ever worked in the airline industry. Actually, it's more like "Never wrestle in the mud with a pig - you'll both get dirty and eventually you'll figure out the pig likes it".

Those I referring to evidently don't do well with their peers (whoever that might be) so they come here, in hopes of being accepted as a world-class guru and authority figure (or something like that).

If you twits want to be gurus, get a sitar, a cobra, and start smoking dope.

 

[eolesen]

, would you characterize these negotiations as "bargaining in good faith", by AA? I certainly wouldn't. Just games!

No less than I consider it good faith to be sending people to negotiations who come back with TA's that nobody was happy with.

You might be correct that the company is glad things are dragging things, but the unions also each bear their fair share of the blame for how the process is going.

Each one is afraid to be the first to come to terms, lest the other two unions somehow cut a better deal... And two of the three unions changed negotiating teams 18-24 months into the process, which essentially sent discussions back to square one.

No one drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood. And from my view in the cheap seats, there's lots of raindrops coming from each of the respective sides....

 

[strikeforce]

No less than I consider it good faith to be sending people to negotiations who come back with TA's that nobody was happy with.

Each one is afraid to be the first to come to terms, lest the other two unions somehow cut a better deal... And two of the three unions changed negotiating teams 18-24 months into the process, which essentially sent discussions back to square one.

Are you kidding me?

The TWU has always been the first one done! Look at the rejected T/A. I don't believe the pilots and F/A's got close to a T/A, did they?

As far as sending people to negotiations who come back with T/A's that nobody's happy with..........This is the TWU. It's not a surprise, and quite frankly....WE can't help it. We don't have control....totally different animal. The F/A's and pilots can replace their negotiating teams if they're not happy.....we can't!

 

[odie01]

Are you kidding me?

The TWU has always been the first one done! Look at the rejected T/A. I don't believe the pilots and F/A's got close to a T/A, did they?

As far as sending people to negotiations who come back with T/A's that nobody's happy with..........This is the TWU. It's not a surprise, and quite frankly....WE can't help it. We don't have control....totally different animal. The F/A's and pilots can replace their negotiating teams if they're not happy.....we can't!

Good point Carmen, I know several pilots that can't believe we've been with the twu this long. Very embarassing to be apart of this mickey mouse union! A career in aviation is what I've always wanted, but the twu has downgraded that to just a job.

 

[BoeingBoy]

(4) to provide for the prompt and orderly settlement of all disputes concerning rates of pay, rules, or working conditions; (5) to provide for the prompt and orderly settlement of all disputes growing out of grievances or out of the interpretation or application of agreements covering rates of pay, rules, or working conditions.

I hate to bring some sanity to good rants, but read those two provisions carefully. Notice the word "disputes" in both? It has nothing to do with negotiations, just the settlement of disputes through the grievance process.

Jim

 

[strikeforce]

I hate to bring some sanity to good rants, but read those two provisions carefully. Notice the word "disputes" in both? It has nothing to do with negotiations, just the settlement of disputes through the grievance process.

Jim

Very good, Jim.

I believe I referenced the general purpose section of the RLA. The thought process behind the RLA was to have timely agreements in place to avoid the chaos you have today. Good point though.

Carmen

 

[strikeforce]

Good point Carmen, I know several pilots that can't believe we've been with the twu this long. Very embarassing to be apart of this mickey mouse union! A career in aviation is what I've always wanted, but the twu has downgraded that to just a job.

Steve, the TWU is not a craft or trade union and primarily represent bus drivers and fleet service clerks. They use the minority (aircraft mechanics) as leverage in order to boost the wages of bus drivers, fleet, stores, etc. Just look at the history of the TWU, and the occupations most Intl presidents, VP's, and executive board members held. I don't believe Sonny Hall was an aircraft mechanic. Jim Little is a dispatcher by trade. Gary Drummond? Joe Gordon? When was the last time an aircraft mechanic held an Intl executive board position? These guys don't have a personal interest in promoting the value of the aircraft mechanic.

Pilots, F/A's, electricians, plumbers, air traffic controllers, and numerous other crafts all have their own kind at the top. It makes a world of difference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but AMFA may be the only aircraft mechanics union that has an aircraft mechanic at the helm. IBT? IAM?

I'm just as embarassed as you are!

Carmen

 

[Frank Szabo]

Very good, Jim.

I believe I referenced the general purpose section of the RLA. The thought process behind the RLA was to have timely agreements in place to avoid the chaos you have today. Good point though.

Carmen

What chaos? The pig likes wrestling in the mud. <grin>

 

[strikeforce]

What chaos? The pig likes wrestling in the mud.

I get it, Frank.