UAL Maintenance & Related Will Vote on Union Representation

atabuy,

You just don''t know these people. UAL management is another breed. All they want are the items signed off. Done right or not. What management is looking for are mechanics that will kiss ass. Qualification doesn''t matter. Performance seems to be based on cleared items. CF DF. Good mechanic or bad they just keep beating on you. Ual has operated by a command & rule method forever. Till all those old-timer management people are gone nothing will change. Maybe a change in the union will help a little.
 
atabuy,

If the truth hurts your sensibilities, move on.
In an idyllic world, good workers never get hassled, but we are not there yet. It would depend on your management philosophy. (Tell me what I want to hear –vs- the truth) The ‘Kiss My Ass’ management style of ‘good’ worker determination is the prevailing management tool here. To know who is the good worker, you must understand what good work is, again we are not there yet. Your assumptions of my ‘attitude’ and, self worth seems to be in lock-step with the guidelines of our management

Your attempt to project the failure of our management to perform their duties in a professional, and business like manner as our own failure is quite a typical ruse that is transparent to most thinking people.

The ‘If you don’t like it then quit.’ attitude is what has been infesting this company for ‘WAY’ too long!!! Having been privileged to be in one of Tilton’s meetings, this exact question came up. Can you tell me what his answer was?

Speak of what you know (or think you know) and move on.

Unions are a failure of management!!!

If there were ever a shining example for the need of unionization in any organization,

UAL would be the ''POSTER BOY''!!!

IMHO,


UT
 
----------------
On 5/3/2003 2:15:53 AM UAL_TECH wrote:



atabuy,
 
If the truth hurts your sensibilities, move on.
In an idyllic world, good workers never get hassled, but we are not there yet.  It would depend on your management philosophy. (Tell me what I want to hear –vs- the truth)  The ‘Kiss My Ass’ management style of ‘good’ worker determination is the prevailing management tool here. To know who is the good worker, you must understand what good work is, again we are not there yet.  Your assumptions of my ‘attitude’ and, self worth seems to be in lock-step with the guidelines of our management 
 
Your attempt to project the failure of our management to perform their duties in a professional, and business like manner as our own failure is quite a typical ruse that is transparent to most thinking people.
 
The ‘If you don’t like it then quit.’ attitude is what has been infesting this company for ‘WAY’ too long!!!  Having been privileged to be in one of Tilton’s meetings, this exact question came up.  Can you tell me what his answer was?
 
Speak of what you know (or think you know) and move on.

Unions are a failure of management!!!

If there were ever a shining example for the need of unionization in any organization,

UAL would be the ''POSTER BOY''!!!

IMHO,


  UT

----------------​
UT,
I guess the big question for all of you is this.
Do you all beleive another union will make management the leadership you want, or will you still be working under the same sweatshop group you are now?
Mark my words that there will be a lot more complaining after AMFA gets in.

I was an IAM member until I retired and don''t think they were forthcoming with information like they should have been. My whole point is the union you elect will not make a difference.

If the company is doing illegal stuff report it with the information I provided in another post. If it is just attitude, work it out.
Life is way to short to spend half your waking hours aggitated.
Sometimes compromise is the best you can get.
Good luck to all of you. I harbor no resentment, just another point of view.
 

----------------
UT,
I guess the big question for all of you is this.
Do you all beleive another union will make management the leadership you want, or will you still be working under the same sweatshop group you are now?
Mark my words that there will be a lot more complaining after AMFA gets in.

I was an IAM member until I retired and don''t think they were forthcoming with information like they should have been. My whole point is the union you elect will not make a difference.

If the company is doing illegal stuff report it with the information I provided in another post. If it is just attitude, work it out.
Life is way to short to spend half your waking hours aggitated.
Sometimes compromise is the best you can get.
Good luck to all of you. I harbor no resentment, just another point of view.

----------------​
Atabuy,
One of the striking features that exemplify my interest in AMFA is their candidness,
and fairness. Wherein, they will go all the way to protect a member that is being
treated unjustly, and will likewise not support a slacker trying to ''ride the system''.
The AMFA reps that I know are intelligent, dedicated workers that have a passion
for their job, and the company (as do I).
As people also run AMFA, I do not believe that it will be a utopian environment,
just a better one. In reality, I believe that this will be better for UAL in the long term.
Always respected your posts, even when I don''t agree.
I also harbor no resentment, hope you enjoy your retirement.
I am sure it is well deserved.
JMHO
Take Care

UAL_TECH
 
----------------
On 5/4/2003 3:08:09 PM UAL_TECH wrote:




----------------

UT,

I guess the big question for all of you is this.

Do you all beleive another union will make management the leadership you want, or will you still be working under the same sweatshop group you are now?

Mark my words that there will be a lot more complaining after AMFA gets in.


I was an IAM member until I retired and don''t think they were forthcoming with information like they should have been. My whole point is the union you elect will not make a difference.


If the company is doing illegal stuff report it with the information I provided in another post. If it is just attitude, work it out.

Life is way to short to spend half your waking hours aggitated.

Sometimes compromise is the best you can get.

Good luck to all of you. I harbor no resentment, just another point of view.


----------------​

Atabuy,

One of the striking features that exemplify my interest in AMFA is their candidness,

and fairness.  Wherein, they will go all the way to protect a member that is being

treated unjustly, and will likewise not support a slacker trying to ''ride the system''. 

The AMFA reps that I know are intelligent, dedicated workers that have a passion

for their job, and the company (as do I). 

As people also run AMFA, I do not believe that it will be a utopian environment,

just a better one.  In reality, I believe that this will be better for UAL in the long term.

Always respected your posts, even when I don''t agree.

I also harbor no resentment, hope you enjoy your retirement. 

I am sure it is well deserved.

JMHO

Take Care


  UAL_TECH

----------------​

Thanks for the kind words. I was just reading U''s board and they are in the same AMFA drive as Ual.
I posted this as it came to me as I was reading.

"After reading these posts, I have come to one conclusion.
The smartest thing would be for everyone to get rid of both unions and put all union dues into an escrow account to pay for a good labor lawyer to deal with any major grievances.
To pay a new union money for nothing until contract negotiations comes around is a waste of money.
When you would decide to get representation, it would be on the terms the members decide.

If the union is the members, become pro active in the running of it.
Just a thought."

Let the unions compete with one another until you guys have the union you want, or maybe you will find out you don''t need either one.
 
Sorry to but in again guys but I will anyway.
I pasted this from the USAIR site.

Will AMFA solve all your problems?

No.
But, going to AMFA will be another small step towards what should have been done years ago.

When I see a mechanic from USAIR I feel a sense of kinship more so than I would a baggage handler in my own union and even more so than someone who is in a completely different industry but the same union. While I do feel a certain kinship with all unionists and working people, it’s strongest with my fellow mechanics. When I go over to talk to mechanics at UPS, we immediately recognize that we are in an unrecognized brotherhood, they are Teamsters. Same at United and even non-union Delta. The fact that our unions keep us apart is wrong. It’s unnatural and anti-union. Unions should bring people together. Especially those who do the same thing.

The TWU, IAM, IBT and CWA do not belong in this industry. They should not be keeping airline workers apart. Why are they here?

Easy, the RLA.

Having unions in the RLA means a constant source of revenue. Once in place it takes very little effort to stay in place.

Do you think that these unions would have gotten away with what they just did in any other industry, especially those in RTW states? I''m dead set against RTW but if it was the law of the land most of these unions would have seen their dues fall off by at least 50% over the last year. I know even in NY, which is a pro-union state, these unions would have seen nearly all dues revenue cease. I know that at this point I would refuse to pay my union.

If it weren’t about dues and power, and these leaders beliefs were true to their words they would have combined their ATDs years ago. They will not do it because none of them are willing to put the welfare of the members ahead of their own personal aspirations.

Since they wont do it, if you ever want to see or have the chance of all mechanics in one powerful union, you only have one choice-AMFA.

There is one undeniable fact. The unions of this industry have failed their airline members. They sat and watched each other get picked off one at a time and did nothing. They told their members not to resist to this rape. Like Tex Antoine they said, "When the force is inevitable, may as well lay back and enjoy it". Instead of standing together to resist, they conspired together to make us submit.

A while back I posted that if a Judge abrogates any agreement at United that all unions should walk off the job. That we should shut down the whole thing and force the government to fix this industry. Worker should not have been forced to bear the burdens imposed by mismanagement and terrorism. Both of these were out of our control. In response to that statement, Jim Little, ATD Director for the TWU said that I was endangering our members and that I should retract the statement. I refused. I told him that his, and the other leaders, inaction was endangering the livelihoods of all airline workers. He blamed the AFL-CIO. Why would a union leader say that an act of solidarity with our fellow unionist is a threat to our members?

Well for one thing they were not losing anything. Their pay, benefits and pensions are untouched. These labor leaders have abandoned the notion of a labor "movement" and instead see themselves as quasi executives themselves. They measure the cost vs. benefit to the short-term bottom line of the organization instead of the long-term interests of the members. They rationalize their treachery with quips about the "greater good" and the belief that all problems can eventually be solved through political lobbying instead of worker mobilization. Mobilization is too messy, and the leaders might actually have to mingle with the members. Political action is so much more sanitary, and safe. "We tried fellas, if only you guys had given a little more to COPE we could have won this oneâ€￾.â€￾ Dig into your pockets fellas and we will beat them next time".

This is business unionism. In fact you could really just drop unionism. This is business. You keep working. Paying dues and hope that things get better. "Take an active role in your union" they say. Ok, what exactly do they mean? Go to meetings? Wow, that will change your life. It’s easy for union officials to complain about the lack of attendance when they are getting paid to be there. Pay more in COPE? You could donate your entire salary; the other side will still outspend you. How about walking a picket line? No No, We want to have "good" relations with management. When your leader asks for more involvement and complains about the members ask him "exactly what would you like to see us do?

AMFA will not in itself be an answer to all this. But one thing is for sure, the status quo is unacceptable. All we are, all of us airline workers, is a constant revenue source for Unions whose primary interests lie outside of our industry. And we have all paid dearly for their lack of interest.

Bob Owens
Treasurer
Local 562 TWU
 
----------------
On 5/8/2003 8:54:11 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Sorry to but in again guys but I will anyway.
I pasted this from the USAIR site.

Will AMFA solve all your problems?

No.
But, going to AMFA will be another small step towards what should have been done years ago.

When I see a mechanic from USAIR I feel a sense of kinship more so than I would a baggage handler in my own union and even more so than someone who is in a completely different industry but the same union. While I do feel a certain kinship with all unionists and working people, it’s strongest with my fellow mechanics. When I go over to talk to mechanics at UPS, we immediately recognize that we are in an unrecognized brotherhood, they are Teamsters. Same at United and even non-union Delta. The fact that our unions keep us apart is wrong. It’s unnatural and anti-union. Unions should bring people together. Especially those who do the same thing.

The TWU, IAM, IBT and CWA do not belong in this industry. They should not be keeping airline workers apart. Why are they here?

Easy, the RLA.

Having unions in the RLA means a constant source of revenue. Once in place it takes very little effort to stay in place.

Do you think that these unions would have gotten away with what they just did in any other industry, especially those in RTW states? I'm dead set against RTW but if it was the law of the land most of these unions would have seen their dues fall off by at least 50% over the last year. I know even in NY, which is a pro-union state, these unions would have seen nearly all dues revenue cease. I know that at this point I would refuse to pay my union.

If it weren’t about dues and power, and these leaders beliefs were true to their words they would have combined their ATDs years ago. They will not do it because none of them are willing to put the welfare of the members ahead of their own personal aspirations.

Since they wont do it, if you ever want to see or have the chance of all mechanics in one powerful union, you only have one choice-AMFA.

There is one undeniable fact. The unions of this industry have failed their airline members. They sat and watched each other get picked off one at a time and did nothing. They told their members not to resist to this rape. Like Tex Antoine they said, "When the force is inevitable, may as well lay back and enjoy it". Instead of standing together to resist, they conspired together to make us submit.

A while back I posted that if a Judge abrogates any agreement at United that all unions should walk off the job. That we should shut down the whole thing and force the government to fix this industry. Worker should not have been forced to bear the burdens imposed by mismanagement and terrorism. Both of these were out of our control. In response to that statement, Jim Little, ATD Director for the TWU said that I was endangering our members and that I should retract the statement. I refused. I told him that his, and the other leaders, inaction was endangering the livelihoods of all airline workers. He blamed the AFL-CIO. Why would a union leader say that an act of solidarity with our fellow unionist is a threat to our members?

Well for one thing they were not losing anything. Their pay, benefits and pensions are untouched. These labor leaders have abandoned the notion of a labor "movement" and instead see themselves as quasi executives themselves. They measure the cost vs. benefit to the short-term bottom line of the organization instead of the long-term interests of the members. They rationalize their treachery with quips about the "greater good" and the belief that all problems can eventually be solved through political lobbying instead of worker mobilization. Mobilization is too messy, and the leaders might actually have to mingle with the members. Political action is so much more sanitary, and safe. "We tried fellas, if only you guys had given a little more to COPE we could have won this oneâ€￾.â€￾ Dig into your pockets fellas and we will beat them next time".

This is business unionism. In fact you could really just drop unionism. This is business. You keep working. Paying dues and hope that things get better. "Take an active role in your union" they say. Ok, what exactly do they mean? Go to meetings? Wow, that will change your life. It’s easy for union officials to complain about the lack of attendance when they are getting paid to be there. Pay more in COPE? You could donate your entire salary; the other side will still outspend you. How about walking a picket line? No No, We want to have "good" relations with management. When your leader asks for more involvement and complains about the members ask him "exactly what would you like to see us do?

AMFA will not in itself be an answer to all this. But one thing is for sure, the status quo is unacceptable. All we are, all of us airline workers, is a constant revenue source for Unions whose primary interests lie outside of our industry. And we have all paid dearly for their lack of interest.

Bob Owens
Treasurer
Local 562 TWU


----------------

Bob,
Good post!!!

There are some interesting discussions (although dated) at:

[url="http://www.planedoctor.com/pd/modules.?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=338#338"]http://www.planedoctor.com/pd/modules.?nam...topic&p=338#338[/URL]

Take Care,

UAL_TECH
 
----------------
On 5/4/2003 7:47:03 AM atabuy wrote:





UT,

I was an IAM member until I retired and don't think they were forthcoming with information like they should have been. My whole point is the union you elect will not make a difference.

How would you ever know unless you try?

By the way, when is your vote?


----------------

​
 
You want to really know what the IAM is about?

It''s about PROTECTION

Who are they protecting?

Let me tell you MY story:

I''ve been working on airplanes since I was 16 years old. Started out on Piper Cubs and ended up doing CAT III''s on Triple Sevens. It was always about working on the planes, troubleshooting and fixing problems - making them airworthy again - that''s what kept me here.

When OAK closed a large group of us got pigeonholed to the back shops by the secretaries that run this operation. There''s no regard to your desires or qualifications, you''re nothing but a warm body with a pulse to the clueless wonders that make the decisions around here.

So now I''m making floorboards in the cabin shop. floorboards to supply Timco who UAL and the IAM has sold us out to.

The IAM is protecting unlicensed, unskilled workers who spend the entire day glueing inserts into holes for thirty bucks an hour.

If anyone from Timco is reading this and you get a floorboard that has one fastener glued in upside-down....

That''s my SIGNATURE
 
kcabpilot;

Sad.

Sad to see what these general unions have done to our profession and our industry.

We must do something.

All of us, regardless of the airline. Regardless of the profession.

We are not alone in our plight. Most workers have suffered under the fat cat union leaders who live the life of a CEO while spewing tired ineffective rhetoric to the members.

Most members have never even had the opportunity to see their unions President.

Mechanics have an option for a craft focused union that will promote the profession.

They should take that option before the general unions have suceeded in wiping us out.

Go AMFA.



The SEIU put out a very interesting paper called "United WE Win". Its on the TWU562 website.The paper criticizes "catch all unions" especially those that divide up an industry.

Airline workers can no longer afford to be split up by these unions that do not have the airlines as their primary focus. Since our leaders will not put strengthening the labor movement ahead of their personal aspirations, something that they dont hesitate to ask their members to do, we are on our own. We must attack this problem through whatever means are at our disposal, whether through internal means or external means.

Amfa offers mechanics the ability to get all mechanics in one union. Its the only alternative to the status quo at present. Getting all mechanics in AMFA would provide superior representation for mechanics than being a part of a part of a part of a general union.

A general union looks at the average wage of all members, regardless of skill, location, conditions etc and determines how individual groups are doing when compared to that average, of course they do not use this logic to determine their own compensation, nor is their compensation figured into that average. Under this scheme airline workers, who tend to be higher skilled, live in more expensive areas, work under more severe conditions and make more than the average worker are given a low priority. As far as these general unions, the TWU,IAM,IBT, and CWA are concerned we are still doing ok. Their main goal was to preserve their foothold in an industry under the RLA. A law that makes it easy for unions to secure a steady dues flow without accounbtability. The choice for them was to sell a bad deal to a captive membership that really cant do anything about it or spend more money and use up more political capital fighting for their members and possibly lose their steady dues supply if the carrier liquidates. With this perspective the business choice was clear, screw the captive members.

Airline workers have the right to associate with other airline workers. Ironically it is the unions, the TWU,IBT,IAM,and CWA that are supressing this right because of the dues flow we provide to those organizations.

These organizations have made themselves rich while our standard of living has declined for over 20 years. These organizations rarely come together to make successful advances, they came together to lower their members wages, strip them of benifits and adversely change their working conditions with great success.

The last twenty years have been a boom to some unions while they led the industry in concessions. The TWU saw membership more than triple while leading the industry in concessions.

Its time for a change.

Airline workers recieve the least benifit possible from these unions. The RLA allows these unions to withhold democracy, leadership, accountabilty and performance while denying the members the right to withhold dues. As much as I hate RTW and know that it is a scam to ruin unions it does make unions accountable. If unions fail to provide accountabilty, democracy and the ability to associate within an industry so as to collectively maximixe bargaining leverage then why should members not support a law that shifts the balance of power within the union in their individual direction? If unions leaders act in their own individual best interests then why shouldnt members support legislation that makes it easier for them to do likewise even if collectively they all suffer? If Union leaders want to win the arguement against RTW then they must lead by example. It is the exposed hypocrisy of these leaders and organizations that is one of the strongest selling points for RTW and that is why drives against RTW like those in Oklahoma will continue to fail.

AFL-CIO rules prevent Flight attendants like those at NWA & SWA and prevented those at AA from joining the AFA. It prevents mechanics and other airline workers from taking the initiative to form an industry specific union that would best satisfy their needs and increase bargaining leverage..

The TWU,IBT,IAM and CWA lay down before the airlines but come out swinging, sparing no expense to thwart a drive for industry specific representation.

The AFL-CIO is made up of many unions. Many could easily sympathize with us. The SEIU recognizes what we face. Maybe these unions should step up to the plate and tell these general "grab any and all to get the dues" unions that their approach is detrimental to all workers. That the division and disection of crafts and industries impair workers strengths. That its time to practice what you preach- Mutual sacrifice for mutual benifit". What has been done to the workers in this industry will be held up as an example of what is expected of all workers. In the meantime the leaders of these unions collect for themselves salaries and benifits that they would never dream of getting for their members.

Its time for a change.

VOTE AMFA.

Its the only sure way of change out there for mechanics.
 
Kcabpilot:

Do you know what contract language the secretaries in Oakland followed? Did you ask them? They have to tell you what procedure they used, otherwise you can file a grievance if they didn't follow the contract. Ask the IAM or even ask AMFA, somebody will find out for you if you're not happy.

Bob Owens:

Are you guyz striking AA yet? Not!!! What ever happened to all that you were telling us before?
 
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