United, Unions Get Deadline To Cut Deal

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United, unions get deadline to cut deal

By Mark Skertic
Tribune staff reporter
Published November 20, 2004

here

Union leaders and United Airlines have a January deadline for reaching a deal on wage and benefit cuts the airline says are necessary to emerge from bankruptcy.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Eugene R. Wedoff has scheduled hearings for Jan. 7 or 10--which has not been determined--to consider whether the court should impose contract changes if United and its unions are unable to agree on reductions.

United has told its six unions it needs an additional $725 million in annual savings and the replacement of the pension plan with a less-expensive defined-contribution plan to bring costs in line with expenses.

Talks are in various stages with each of the unions, Chief Financial Officer Jake Brace said during a break at Friday's hearing, although he declined to characterize them.

Brace said that some labor leaders' criticism of United's push for wage and benefit cuts is counterproductive to the airline's efforts to emerge from bankruptcy.

"We ought to be sitting down at the table and working out our issues," he said. "We have a real need to cut our costs; the need is urgent."

As expected, Wedoff granted United's request for more time to develop its reorganization plan. The airline, which filed for bankruptcy protection in December 2002, has until Jan. 31 to work on its plan without competing plans being submitted to the court by outside investors.

The airline this month outlined a variety of cost-saving proposals to the unions that, airline executives say, will cut an additional $2 billion in expenses. Last year workers agreed to $2.5 billion in annual concessions.

The Association of Flight Attendants has been the most outspoken against United's demand for more cuts. Flight attendants working for US Airways, another airline mired bankruptcy proceedings, also are being asked for contract concessions, and this week the union warned it was considering surprise work stoppages against various carriers if the court imposes contract changes.

Such threats are not expected to affect holiday travel.

"It's not going to happen," Brace said. "Thanksgiving travel plans for anybody are perfectly safe."

The court is not scheduled to consider whether to change the contract until after the holidays.

Additionally, airline employees' work rules are governed by the Railway Labor Act, and federal regulations say a strike can't occur without permission from the National Mediation Board.
 
Boy this ones a HOOOOOOT!

Brace said that some labor leaders' criticism of United's push for wage and benefit cuts is counterproductive to the airline's efforts to emerge from bankruptcy.

"We ought to be sitting down at the table and working out our issues," he said. "We have a real need to cut our costs; the need is urgent."

Sure didn't have that attititude over the seamless contracts they promised! Guess they just didn't want to give back any of that 8B they made off EFLOP. I hope ALL of you will remember that when it comes time to vote. They want you to give to save UniTED AGAIN, but when the good times come back (if they survive) YOU KNOW THEY WON'T GIVE YOU A SLICE OF THEIR PIE!!!!
 
Additionally, airline employees' work rules are governed by the Railway Labor Act, and federal regulations say a strike can't occur without permission from the National Mediation Board.

Not if you abrogate their contract's!!! There isn't a president, judge, or NMB anywhere that can MAKE them work without a contract PERIOD. Why don't these clowns get that through their thick skulls? STRIKE!!!!! :shock:
 
The court is not scheduled to consider whether to change the contract until after the holidays.

Additionally, airline employees' work rules are governed by the Railway Labor Act, and federal regulations say a strike can't occur without permission from the National Mediation Board.
[post="202671"][/post]​

Jack,

If the RLA is in effect (as you appear to admit) then we are now in Section 6 negotiations instead of the BK Section 1113 process.

Can't have it both ways Jack.

:down: UT

BTW: If Jack was stuck on a roof, would you help Jack off?
 
A couple of points:

1) In case everyone forgot, Fish is a Frontier employee whose airline will only succeed if United fails. Of course he's going to post anything he can to stir the pot over here. And of course he wants us to strike as that would shut us down.

2) I had a conversation with my union rep yesterday, and it seems that ALPA legal believes that if our contract is abrogated, a strike or other work action would be illegal, which is contrary to what most of our members believed, including me. Makes for an interesting wrinkle. I guess the other unions have a different interpretation.
 
ualdriver said:
I had a conversation with my union rep yesterday, and it seems that ALPA legal believes that if our contract is abrogated, a strike or other work action would be illegal, which is contrary to what most of our members believed, including me. Makes for an interesting wrinkle. I guess the other unions have a different interpretation.
[post="202816"][/post]​
Hey ualdriver,

What about those 'meetings' with the VPs when they told you the concessions would be tied to oil. Anything going on with ALPA and negotiations to indicate they're upholding that 'promise'?

Looks like they took the rest of us for a ride, unless that 'promise' was meant for ALPA only. I guess we'll find out soon enough when the ALPA proposal is public.

I won't say "I told you so" though, just like no one else has done on this board.
 
ualdriver said:
A couple of points:

1) In case everyone forgot, Fish is a Frontier employee whose airline will only succeed if United fails. Of course he's going to post anything he can to stir the pot over here. And of course he wants us to strike as that would shut us down.

2) I had a conversation with my union rep yesterday, and it seems that ALPA legal believes that if our contract is abrogated, a strike or other work action would be illegal, which is contrary to what most of our members believed, including me. Makes for an interesting wrinkle. I guess the other unions have a different interpretation.
[post="202816"][/post]​

Ualdriver,

That is always possible. The contention is if we are under the jurisdiction of the RLA or BK laws. Since we are being forced into negotiations outside of Section 6 of the RLA one could argue that the RLA is not enforceable in BK. AMFA legal is looking into it but (as you know) there has not been a similar case in which to base precedent. Given our ‘Labor Friendly’ government, I would not be surprised if BK laws took precedent up to the point of seeking self-help, then the RLA would be kicked in (for the good of commerce :p ).

Of course, the company’s position is that they can do whatever they want in BK and have the protections of the RLA.

We’ll see soon enough.

JMHO,
B) UT
 
spacewaitress said:
Hey ualdriver,

What about those 'meetings' with the VPs when they told you the concessions would be tied to oil. Anything going on with ALPA and negotiations to indicate they're upholding that 'promise'?

Looks like they took the rest of us for a ride, unless that 'promise' was meant for ALPA only. I guess we'll find out soon enough when the ALPA proposal is public.

I won't say "I told you so" though, just like no one else has done on this board.
[post="202859"][/post]​

Actually, they are upholding that "promise," however it's inadequate in my opinion.

If you look at the ALPA proposal which was released publically a few days ago, it says that we (the employees) get 15% of the (net?) profit UAL earns above 10M (don't quote me on the numbers or the type of profit as I don't have the term sheet in front of me to refer to). So basically, that does tie our concessions to oil. It also ties our concessions to just about everything else that affects our bottom line, but if oil goes down, we should earn a higher profit sharing check, assuming, of course, that we start making money some day. This new profit sharing deal replaces the one that we are currently "enjoying" right now.

When I orginally saw that section of our tentative agreement, I did some VERY VERY rough "back of the envelope" calculations for me (I'm a pilot, it's all about me, right?). Anyway, the company would have to earn roughtly 400M in profit in order for me to obtain the same benefit the current profit sharing deal has paid me over the past few quarters. I think everyone would have to do their own calculation based upon what category of employee they are. But for us, it's a pretty weak profit sharing in my opinion.
 
ualdriver:

The impression given was there would be a direct coorelation, that somehow the VPs were somehow going to engage the unions honestly and ethically.

I knew it was too good to be true. History shows this company is neither ethical or honest when dealing with employees.

At this point, I almost wish for liquidation, that's how intense my anger is. Unfortunately, the only ones who would be hurt would be the grunts.

Oh well, let the chips fall.
 
OK, so to see if I have this right, you say UniTED is going to pay 15% of everything over the 10M mark right?

So lets say hypothetically UniTED makes 450M for a quarter LOL. :lol:

Minus the 10M leaves 440M minus the 15% equals 66M

So with the employee base there now you divide 66M by 65K employees, that is about 1K a piece before taxes. You do that for 4 quarters that is 4K before taxes for the year. Is that really going to make up for the percentage of the wages your giving up?Most of the wage cuts are in the 10's of 1000's of dollars, I wouldn't be impressed with that profit sharing if I was you!!! :down: I wouldn't go for anything less than 50/50 split on the profits if I was you, UniTED management will be laughing all the way to the bank AGAIN!!! :shock:
 
mrfish3726 said:
So lets say hypothetically UniTED makes 450M for a quarter LOL. :lol:

[post="203138"][/post]​
Fish, aren't you being overly generous? Even WN hasn't ever made these type of profits. Your numbers are eye opening since, if there is a profit it will most certainly will not be approaching the numbers you quote.
 
mrfish3726 said:
I wouldn't go for anything less than 50/50 split on the profits if I was you, UniTED management will be laughing all the way to the bank AGAIN!!! :shock:
[post="203138"][/post]​

It's no company's stated business goal to provide high-paying jobs with gobs of benefits. If you feel you can do better elsewhere, then please do.

The fact is for me, even with a 10% cut I'll be making more than I could at JetBlue, Frontier, or other places. So I'll stay. I work at WHQ and my MBA landed me an internal promotion this summer with a 20% pay increase. The loss of pay sucks, but I know I can live on only 10% more than what I was making before job bump. My attitude is now to gain as many skills as I can and pad my resume for the day that I may need them in an interview. But who knows, UA might make it. If not, I'll be prepared.
 
spacewaitress-

Well the impression I had as well was that it would be tied to oil. Maybe I misunderstood, maybe he lied, maybe the plan was changed by the banks- I have no idea. I reported what I was told.

Fish, get a clue. I never said the profit sharing plan was a replacement for the concessions we will have given, nor was it intended to. Considering Frontier's latest set backs, I'll say it again. Your airline can't even make any decent money competing against us when we have one foot in the grave either in LAX or DEN. How in the world is Frontier going to compete if we exit bankruptcy?
 
A few years ago I posted a graduated wage adjustment to fluccuate with what the company' bottom line was.
Here it is:
How do these redutions compare with todays wage losses?

Maybe the largest percentage could have topped out at 40 %. This was just a rough calculation.
The higher paying employees had the most to lose if Ual went out of business.
Just curious.


Percentage Salary Concession New salary
10.00% $30,000.00 $3,000.00 $27,000.00
10.25% $31,000.00 $3,177.50 $27,822.50
10.50% $32,000.00 $3,360.00 $28,640.00
10.75% $33,000.00 $3,547.50 $29,452.50
11.00% $34,000.00 $3,740.00 $30,260.00
11.25% $35,000.00 $3,937.50 $31,062.50
11.50% $36,000.00 $4,140.00 $31,860.00
11.75% $37,000.00 $4,347.50 $32,652.50
12.00% $38,000.00 $4,560.00 $33,440.00
12.25% $39,000.00 $4,777.50 $34,222.50
12.50% $40,000.00 $5,000.00 $35,000.00
12.75% $41,000.00 $5,227.50 $35,772.50
13.00% $42,000.00 $5,460.00 $36,540.00
13.25% $43,000.00 $5,697.50 $37,302.50
13.50% $44,000.00 $5,940.00 $38,060.00
13.75% $45,000.00 $6,187.50 $38,812.50
14.00% $46,000.00 $6,440.00 $39,560.00
14.25% $47,000.00 $6,697.50 $40,302.50
14.50% $48,000.00 $6,960.00 $41,040.00
14.75% $49,000.00 $7,227.50 $41,772.50
15.00% $50,000.00 $7,500.00 $42,500.00
15.25% $51,000.00 $7,777.50 $43,222.50
15.50% $52,000.00 $8,060.00 $43,940.00
15.75% $53,000.00 $8,347.50 $44,652.50
16.00% $54,000.00 $8,640.00 $45,360.00
16.25% $55,000.00 $8,937.50 $46,062.50
16.50% $56,000.00 $9,240.00 $46,760.00
16.75% $57,000.00 $9,547.50 $47,452.50
17.00% $58,000.00 $9,860.00 $48,140.00
17.25% $59,000.00 $10,177.50 $48,822.50
17.50% $60,000.00 $10,500.00 $49,500.00
17.75% $61,000.00 $10,827.50 $50,172.50
18.00% $62,000.00 $11,160.00 $50,840.00
18.25% $63,000.00 $11,497.50 $51,502.50
18.50% $64,000.00 $11,840.00 $52,160.00
18.75% $65,000.00 $12,187.50 $52,812.50
19.00% $66,000.00 $12,540.00 $53,460.00
19.25% $67,000.00 $12,897.50 $54,102.50
19.50% $68,000.00 $13,260.00 $54,740.00
19.75% $69,000.00 $13,627.50 $55,372.50
20.00% $70,000.00 $14,000.00 $56,000.00
20.25% $71,000.00 $14,377.50 $56,622.50
20.50% $72,000.00 $14,760.00 $57,240.00
20.75% $73,000.00 $15,147.50 $57,852.50
21.00% $74,000.00 $15,540.00 $58,460.00
21.25% $75,000.00 $15,937.50 $59,062.50
21.50% $76,000.00 $16,340.00 $59,660.00
21.75% $77,000.00 $16,747.50 $60,252.50
22.00% $78,000.00 $17,160.00 $60,840.00
22.25% $79,000.00 $17,577.50 $61,422.50
22.50% $80,000.00 $18,000.00 $62,000.00
22.75% $81,000.00 $18,427.50 $62,572.50
23.00% $82,000.00 $18,860.00 $63,140.00
23.25% $83,000.00 $19,297.50 $63,702.50
23.50% $84,000.00 $19,740.00 $64,260.00
23.75% $85,000.00 $20,187.50 $64,812.50
24.00% $86,000.00 $20,640.00 $65,360.00
24.25% $87,000.00 $21,097.50 $65,902.50
24.50% $88,000.00 $21,560.00 $66,440.00
24.75% $89,000.00 $22,027.50 $66,972.50
25.00% $90,000.00 $22,500.00 $67,500.00
25.25% $91,000.00 $22,977.50 $68,022.50
25.50% $92,000.00 $23,460.00 $68,540.00
25.75% $93,000.00 $23,947.50 $69,052.50
26.00% $94,000.00 $24,440.00 $69,560.00
26.25% $95,000.00 $24,937.50 $70,062.50
26.50% $96,000.00 $25,440.00 $70,560.00
26.75% $97,000.00 $25,947.50 $71,052.50
27.00% $98,000.00 $26,460.00 $71,540.00
27.25% $99,000.00 $26,977.50 $72,022.50
27.50% $100,000.00 $27,500.00 $72,500.00
27.75% $101,000.00 $28,027.50 $72,972.50
28.00% $102,000.00 $28,560.00 $73,440.00
28.25% $103,000.00 $29,097.50 $73,902.50
28.50% $104,000.00 $29,640.00 $74,360.00
28.75% $105,000.00 $30,187.50 $74,812.50
29.00% $106,000.00 $30,740.00 $75,260.00
29.25% $107,000.00 $31,297.50 $75,702.50
29.50% $108,000.00 $31,860.00 $76,140.00
29.75% $109,000.00 $32,427.50 $76,572.50
30.00% $110,000.00 $33,000.00 $77,000.00
30.25% $111,000.00 $33,577.50 $77,422.50
30.50% $112,000.00 $34,160.00 $77,840.00
30.75% $113,000.00 $34,747.50 $78,252.50
31.00% $114,000.00 $35,340.00 $78,660.00
31.25% $115,000.00 $35,937.50 $79,062.50
31.50% $116,000.00 $36,540.00 $79,460.00
31.75% $117,000.00 $37,147.50 $79,852.50
32.00% $118,000.00 $37,760.00 $80,240.00
32.25% $119,000.00 $38,377.50 $80,622.50
32.50% $120,000.00 $39,000.00 $81,000.00
32.75% $121,000.00 $39,627.50 $81,372.50
33.00% $122,000.00 $40,260.00 $81,740.00
33.25% $123,000.00 $40,897.50 $82,102.50
33.50% $124,000.00 $41,540.00 $82,460.00
33.75% $125,000.00 $42,187.50 $82,812.50
34.00% $126,000.00 $42,840.00 $83,160.00
34.25% $127,000.00 $43,497.50 $83,502.50
34.50% $128,000.00 $44,160.00 $83,840.00
34.75% $129,000.00 $44,827.50 $84,172.50
35.00% $130,000.00 $45,500.00 $84,500.00
35.25% $131,000.00 $46,177.50 $84,822.50
35.50% $132,000.00 $46,860.00 $85,140.00
35.75% $133,000.00 $47,547.50 $85,452.50
36.00% $134,000.00 $48,240.00 $85,760.00
36.25% $135,000.00 $48,937.50 $86,062.50
36.50% $136,000.00 $49,640.00 $86,360.00
36.75% $137,000.00 $50,347.50 $86,652.50
37.00% $138,000.00 $51,060.00 $86,940.00
37.25% $139,000.00 $51,777.50 $87,222.50
37.50% $140,000.00 $52,500.00 $87,500.00
37.75% $141,000.00 $53,227.50 $87,772.50
38.00% $142,000.00 $53,960.00 $88,040.00
38.25% $143,000.00 $54,697.50 $88,302.50
38.50% $144,000.00 $55,440.00 $88,560.00
38.75% $145,000.00 $56,187.50 $88,812.50
39.00% $146,000.00 $56,940.00 $89,060.00
39.25% $147,000.00 $57,697.50 $89,302.50
39.50% $148,000.00 $58,460.00 $89,540.00
39.75% $149,000.00 $59,227.50 $89,772.50
40.00% $150,000.00 $60,000.00 $90,000.00
40.25% $151,000.00 $60,777.50 $90,222.50
40.50% $152,000.00 $61,560.00 $90,440.00
40.75% $153,000.00 $62,347.50 $90,652.50
41.00% $154,000.00 $63,140.00 $90,860.00
41.25% $155,000.00 $63,937.50 $91,062.50
41.50% $156,000.00 $64,740.00 $91,260.00
41.75% $157,000.00 $65,547.50 $91,452.50
42.00% $158,000.00 $66,360.00 $91,640.00
42.25% $159,000.00 $67,177.50 $91,822.50
42.50% $160,000.00 $68,000.00 $92,000.00
42.75% $161,000.00 $68,827.50 $92,172.50
43.00% $162,000.00 $69,660.00 $92,340.00
43.25% $163,000.00 $70,497.50 $92,502.50
43.50% $164,000.00 $71,340.00 $92,660.00
43.75% $165,000.00 $72,187.50 $92,812.50
44.00% $166,000.00 $73,040.00 $92,960.00
44.25% $167,000.00 $73,897.50 $93,102.50
44.50% $168,000.00 $74,760.00 $93,240.00
44.75% $169,000.00 $75,627.50 $93,372.50
45.00% $170,000.00 $76,500.00 $93,500.00
45.25% $171,000.00 $77,377.50 $93,622.50
45.50% $172,000.00 $78,260.00 $93,740.00
45.75% $173,000.00 $79,147.50 $93,852.50
46.00% $174,000.00 $80,040.00 $93,960.00
46.25% $175,000.00 $80,937.50 $94,062.50
46.50% $176,000.00 $81,840.00 $94,160.00
46.75% $177,000.00 $82,747.50 $94,252.50
47.00% $178,000.00 $83,660.00 $94,340.00
47.25% $179,000.00 $84,577.50 $94,422.50
47.50% $180,000.00 $85,500.00 $94,500.00
47.75% $181,000.00 $86,427.50 $94,572.50
48.00% $182,000.00 $87,360.00 $94,640.00
48.25% $183,000.00 $88,297.50 $94,702.50
48.50% $184,000.00 $89,240.00 $94,760.00
48.75% $185,000.00 $90,187.50 $94,812.50
49.00% $186,000.00 $91,140.00 $94,860.00
49.25% $187,000.00 $92,097.50 $94,902.50
49.50% $188,000.00 $93,060.00 $94,940.00
49.75% $189,000.00 $94,027.50 $94,972.50
50.00% $190,000.00 $95,000.00 $95,000.00