US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[prechilill]

Funny thing, "boss-man"...about any "deal"...the policing agent over and within which any "deal' was made is gone....

now, you will have to srtart writing the speech you're gonna give to your poor west guys that will lose on the 'real deal" with the new and legal union you helped into place.

You warned them....leonidas...'warriors"....(maybe to death)...so I guess you're clear..

But here's your deal: you gambled valiantly.....you lost ALPA...and therefore, the agent who was charged with seeing NIC into a new CBA (which makes it concrete),,,

well,

(you're in some pretty $%*& now)

Bud, you were at the bottom of the seniority list before the integration and that is where you will remain- regardless of your USAP mentality. Does it bother you to have a bunch of twenty-something year old pilots senior to you? It seems to be that way with your rancorous posts, especially knowing you were furloughed with no hope of ever coming back until Parker rescued your job. That little bit of info puts a lot into perspective. I know I know, you want it all and you (in your mind) deserve it all. Well, bud, you can't always get what you want. And you may want to understand a little more about the arbitration process...You display a tremendous knowledge deficit here. Peace.

 

[flapsfivetaxi]

Could someone post the payrates the company offered in May of 2007? I had them but have can't find them now.

 

[machtuck]

Bud, you were at the bottom of the seniority list before the integration and that is where you will remain- regardless of your USAP mentality. Does it bother you to have a bunch of twenty-something year old pilots senior to you? It seems to be that way with your rancorous posts, especially knowing you were furloughed with no hope of ever coming back until Parker rescued your job. That little bit of info puts a lot into perspective. I know I know, you want it all and you (in your mind) deserve it all. Well, bud, you can't always get what you want. And you may want to understand a little more about the arbitration process...You display a tremendous knowledge deficit here. Peace.

My relative position is of no consequence to you, and it doesn't change the facts. No, I could care less about 20 somethings...nice try.
What is important is exactly who wants what...and I have seen and heard enough to decide for myself....I guess it's left up to the courts to decide.

I submit that it is the "army" you have who not only doesn't want anyone bidding into PHX, doesn't want to lose their left seat, AND doesn't even want a fence that might provide those protections...

hmmm

You tell me...who wants what?

Peace yourself.

 

[Ralph]

Sorry, dropped the ball in starting the new thread yesterday. Posts made today on the other thread will be moved here.

 

[EastUS]

I know I know, you want it all and you (in your mind) deserve it all.

I find the "I know I know" to be of interest here...I'm very, very sure that you do.

Ah well...what else could one ever expect from the author of "Ho Ho Ho!..St nic is coming to town!"? After a point, even the most blatant forms of wanton hypocrisy lose their edge, and simply become tiresome. Just a suggestion =Try some fresh approach that's a little bit less absurdly self righteous, utterly hypocritical, and perhaps..even at least slightly believable next time around. The last few days of postings from others have established that it is actually possible to discuss these issues without purely playing the part of the self-obsessed and wholly frustrated adolescant...Give it a chance.

 

[machtuck]

Yes, I thought we had taken things up a notch over the personal insults..

It seems that when certain buttons get pushed, Leo and his cronies begin with the attacks and inuendo.

I'm done with them altogether.

 

[EastUS]

Yes, I thought we had taken things up a notch over the personal insults..

It seems that when certain buttons get pushed, Leo and his cronies begin with the attacks and inuendo.

I'm done with them altogether.

I understand your sentiments there. But...Well..for what it's worth, and coming from one who's launched his full, "fair" share of personal attacks myself..I find that the discussion level's been greatly improved of late, partly, I believe, due to your own earlier call for such sir, when addressing abloeoneable. "Ya' shoulda' seen tha' place immediately after Nic was announced"...and up untill very recently. Just the fact that any here can have even the least civil discourse nowadays reflects a huge change in the conversational climate. I certainly don't fantasize any wholesale agreement to ever occur, but it's sure nice to see many people actually expressing what's on their minds coherently, instead of immediately dropping to the "Yo Momma" level. There are certainly some interesting "cases" out there, but I'm not so much of the belief that they're representative of the general thought as I was in past times. I could be wrong

 

[traderjake]

Why no USAPA elections until next year?

USAPA doesn't want anyone but their hand picked Role Call 4 hardliner types to have any input on contract negotiations.

 

[EastUS]

Why no USAPA elections until next year?

USAPA doesn't want anyone but their hand picked Role Call 4 hardliner types to have any input on contract negotiations.

You don't pay dues, participate in any way, or have any vote, and all entirely by your own choosing...What's your possible point here?..

I pay dues, thusly have a vote, and I'm perfectly fine with having "hardliner" sorts overseeing contract negotiations....I wouldn't trade any of them for any devoutly alpoid weasels in my worst nightmares....

 

[nostradamus]

Leonidas Update for August 21, 2008


Dear AWA Pilots,

Our primary focus is now on launching the legal campaign that will seek to force the implementation of the Nicolau seniority list. With the looming furloughs, we understand that people are looking to Leonidas LLC to do something to prevent them immediately. While that would certainly be considered a victory, the realities of our legal system do not simply permit us to go straight before a judge and ask him or her to intervene with what can be perceived on the surface as normal commerce. We will have to unfold the story before the court first, and seek relief at that time, and as quickly as possible- we’ve said it before, but only the AWA pilots suffer for other parties failing to act as they had agreed. We know and understand that fact to the very core of our souls, but the justice system currently lacks that understanding, and it will not simply take our word for it- we will have to prove it. Our day in court is coming.

USAPA is now the collective bargaining agent, and if you feel that there is a contractual matter that needs USAPA’s specific attention, then we must recommend that you attempt to utilize the normal resolution process found in our contract. If you are certain that you will suffer a measurable and quantifiable harm, then we invite you to consider using the grievance process, but we will not provide the AWA pilots with a form-letter style grievance, as we are not a representational body. We cannot tell you when or how to utilize that process.

Additionally, we intend to bring the subject of “out-of-seniority furloughsâ€￾ before the court. If you are not seriously impacted, then you should consider not filing a grievance on this issue, which would be the normal course of action when living under unbiased union governance. In the meantime, we can only expect USAPA to act to represent us fairly by properly addressing legitimate grievances when filed, and call them out for it if they do not.

The recent request we made that all AWA pilots submit a protest letter to the company regarding the displacement bid was different, in that we simply wanted to go on record with the company (as permitted by C2004) that we disagree with their decision to furlough on the West- nothing more, as there really is no protest resolution process spelled out regarding that matter in the contract, but we also know that silence can be seen as acceptance, and we certainly do not accept the company’s action in this case.

We would like to reiterate that we are commencing a legal campaign against those who have harmed the AWA pilots. We know that this generates much excitement among AWA pilots and their families, however please understand that we cannot divulge much of the legal strategy, or the substance of our complaints. The reasons for this should be self evident, but we will keep AWA pilots informed with whatever information the legal team considers appropriate for distribution.

It must also be understood that we cannot post our strategy and research to be viewed by the public at large, and possibly our opponents as well. One last item; due to necessity, time constraints, and the requirement to focus on the priorities at hand, you will not find us lurking on the AWAPPA boards, nor will we publicly respond to open-ended questions found in that forum. The choice not to engage certain individuals via a message board is both by design and a conscientious decision, because it will do nothing to solve the problems we currently face as a pilot group, and only causes needless distraction.

As always, we sincerely request your direct input if you believe you have information that might strengthen or reinforce this important litigation. This endeavor is undertaken for the future well-being of all airline pilots, and more importantly, to simply uphold the principles of integrity and good faith.

With respect,

Leonidas LLC

 

[EastUS]

Leonidas Update for August 21, 2008


Dear AWA Pilots,

It must also be understood that we cannot post our strategy and research to be viewed by the public at large, Leonidas LLC

Leo: "We know and understand that fact to the very core of our souls, but the justice system currently lacks that understanding, and it will not simply take our word for it- we will have to prove it." No kidding there...although I'm natrually surprised that any/all courts won't just take the Leo's word for anything...what ith all the vast, flowing rivers of "INTEGRITY" around there....

Leo: "Our day in court is coming." Any second now....tomorrow for sure....well..maybe next week/month.year/several years anyway....if ever.

Leo: "Additionally, we intend to bring the subject of “out-of-seniority furloughsâ€￾ before the court." Well....likely a long time after the MDA issue's finally adjudicated...stay tuned for further details and developments as they happen...and no = I mean nothing agoinst those set for furlough,a nd think that LOS should have trumped therein myself...LOS..not some Nic BS.

Leo: " If you are certain that you will suffer a measurable and quantifiable harm, then we invite you to consider using the grievance process,.."..." In the meantime, we can only expect USAPA to act to represent us fairly by properly addressing legitimate grievances when filed, and call them out for it if they do not." Translation into any semblance of coherent thought = Don't ever pay your dues, but use any/all Union processes and benefits to the max possible extent...Whew!..Now THERE's true "INTEGRITY" at work

Leo: "We would like to reiterate that we are commencing a legal campaign against those who have harmed the AWA pilots. We know that this generates much excitement among AWA pilots and their families,.." Must be a really slow day for any actual news out there...but hey!...Isn't it supposed to be "bad" for anyone to sue anyone? ..No matter = a shudder of fear's going to resonate throughout the entire east community immediately....

Leo: "The choice not to engage certain individuals via a message board is both by design and a conscientious decision, because it will do nothing to solve the problems we currently face as a pilot group, and only causes needless distraction." Translation = Said specious BS won't actually withstand the least scrutiny in the light of day. "needless distraction" = "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!..The Great and Powerful LeOz has spoken!"..

The latest from Leo in summary form = "Additionally, we intend.."...."We would like.."..."The recent request we made.."..."we simply wanted to go on record with the company"..."We know and understand that fact to the very core of our souls, but the justice system currently lacks that understanding, .."


Leo: "USAPA is now the collective bargaining agent" Enough said.

 

[nostradamus]

america west pilot message in October 2007

""Army of Leonidas

October 03 2007 Leonidas was the Spartan king who led his personal guard of 300 men, along with several hundred Greek volunteers, against an onslaught of hundreds of thousands of Persians in the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 B.C. When the Persian King Xerxes demand that the Army of Leonidas surrender their weapons prior to battle, Leonidas reply was, "Come and take them!"

No doubt the pilots of America West feel much the same as did the Army of Leonidas as they faced nearly impossible odds. In fact, if you choose to support this endeavor, you will become part of the Army of Leonidas.

Leonidas LLC is a voluntary membership, Arizona based, Limited Liability Corporation. The purpose of Leonidas LLC is to fund legal protection for the pilots of America West Airlines, and to provide for outside, third- party legal oversight of all entities involved in our merger with US Airways.

We must assert our legal rights, seek remedies if necessary, and be ready for any possible contingency, independent of ALPA, during the merger of America West and US Airways.

Membership is strictly limited to the pilots of the former America West Airlines.""

 

[nostradamus]

I understand that my contribution does not entitle me to directly communicate
with, nor direct the legal firm chosen by the managers on behalf of the AWA
pilots, and neither does my contribution imply that I may specifically direct the
affairs of Leonidas LLC. I do understand that I am encouraged and expected to
share with the managers any thoughts and ideas that I believe are relevant to the
successful defense of AWA pilots.
Signed: __________________________________________________
Date (mm/dd/yy): ____________________

"Give us your money and shut up, sounds like alpa to me."

No Nic

furloughs

no union reps because they tell you not to join

their personal pride is costing you money and time with your family.

you can listen to them and remain a victim, or become involved and choose your destiny.

 

[EastUS]

america west pilot message in October 2007

""Army of Leonidas

In fact, if you choose to support this endeavor, you will become part of the Army of Leonidas

LeoLanders: "October 03 2007 Leonidas was the Spartan king who led his personal guard of 300 men, along with several hundred Greek volunteers, against an onslaught of hundreds of thousands of Persians in the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 B.C. When the Persian King Xerxes demand that the Army of Leonidas surrender their weapons prior to battle, Leonidas reply was, "Come and take them!"



Mostly good so far, except that there weren't "several hundred" greek volunteers but more like 4,000-7,000 in addition to the Spartans, depending on who's estimates one goes by. . Something noteably missing from the heroic west propoganda, is a line attributed to the King prior to the battle, when offered the Kingship of all Greece by Xerxes, instead of battle was : "If you knew what is good in life, you would abstain from wishing for foreign things. For me it is better to die for Greece than to be monarch over my compatriots." I'm not at all so sure that the real-life actual, no-BS-in-any-way- Warrior, King Leonidas, would have been at all thrilled with the "Gimmee my Nic" crowd in the least. = The real Leonidas = "If you knew what is good in life, you would abstain from wishing for foreign things."


"Leoland" "In fact, if you choose to support this endeavor, you will become part of the Army of Leonidas."

Ummm...SURE you will...what an obscene joke, showing complete contempt for real and once-living people that gave their all. Per Herodotus, Leonidas' wife asked of him how she could help him in any way. He responded "Marry a good man, bear good children, and live a good life." Poor man..he must not have felt himself protected by some arbitrator...and fully known that he was going into the real deal.That it's so laughably ridiculous, and patently absurd for ANYBODY to equate an heroic King, self-sacrificing and fierce warriors, the ideals and tremendous self discipline needed to knowingly go to a gruesome and violent death on the battlefield, and the courage to actually do just exactly that....with any non-lethal, petty labor issues...well...enjoy the "heroic" fantasy out there in Leo-La-La-Land if it amuses any of you to do so, Little Kiddies and Lawyers Inc...

"Leoland" "No doubt the pilots of America West feel much the same as did the Army of Leonidas ".....Ummm..SURE they do..once more = All that's actually missing from that sorry fantasy, is around a quarter million or more persian and combined troops, bent on brutally killing anyone in front of them. I hear those west lawyers are a truly tough crowd though. I'm sure they'd have taken those persians on immediately....at least, between begging for mercy and personal survival, and certainly have tried to solicited them as clients anyway

These men perished over two thousand years ago..but at least some modicum of honest respect for them and their sacrifices, to say the very least, seems very appropriate to me. As for the few lawyers and self ascribed, but wholly delusional "Spartans" of "The Army of Leonidas" engaged in epic "battle" for their Holy St Nic out west? = Welllll....Not so much

Enough said on that unbelievably pathetic BS.

The real Leonidas once more = "If you knew what is good in life, you would abstain from wishing for foreign things."

Anyone care to guess what the real man, the actual Leonidas would have thought about the fake little twerp/westie 'version" = "Leonidas of AWA" : "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"....

Let's run that by yet one more time against King Leonidas' "If you knew what is good in life, you would abstain from wishing for foreign things."

Oh yeah...no doubt at all in my mind..both spirtually and morally, and of course..with the fullest "INTEGRITY" .... these "Heros" out west are truly in "The Army of Leonidas" all right.....sure....whatever you guys/gals out there want to say to yourselves anyway.

The picture's of the area where King Leonidas and the remaining Spartans fell. A memorial has existed, in one form or another there, for well over two thousand years, starting with not mnay years after the battle itself. There's not any "I want" nor "Ho Ho Ho!" to be found anywhere around it........Merely a presmed replica of a far earlier plaque, extolling any travelers to pass on to the Spartan people that the soldiers perished performing their duties.....Aren't any of you guys out west at least a little bit ashamed of yourselves, for trying to childishly associate yourselves in any way, with the fully earned and lasting glory of these men's sacrifices?...Nevermind.....I guess it just all goes with the whole "It's really all just about me and right now!" philosophy...and I guess that I'll never get just how seriously some of you really take yourselves out there.....or ever even want to understand it....Oh well..it's a pretty safe bet that there won't be any memorials to be seen for nearly 2500 years and counting, for your "Army" out west anyway.....So do try and not take yourselves too seriously

 

[traderjake]

I pay dues, thusly have a vote, and I'm perfectly fine with having "hardliner" sorts overseeing contract negotiations....I wouldn't trade any of them for any devoutly alpoid weasels in my worst nightmares....

Who controlled the MEC when LOA 93 was negotiated?

The Role Call 4 hardliners.

Who negotiated LOA93?

Doug Mowery and the RC 4 hardliners.