Who would you rather take your chances with?

[getitgoin]

The other day I had this conversation with a fella I work with, and so decided to pose the question to see what kind of responses come out of it.

Looking at history (the robber barons/the rise of the American labor movement) the direction of the country (globalization, North American Free Trade Agreement,trade with communist China, etc.).

If you were asked to side with either; Wall Street driven corporations or the other side labor unions who would you pick.

Here's the challenge. Put up an argument in a civil debate format.

I say this because the worst time to make a decision is when you're angry or in an otherwise emotional state.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Great question.

Obviously, my answer would be to side with 'labor'. My reasoning is that even though there are some labor unions that lack the democracy and unity to fully protect the interests of workers, I believe they are the only thing that stands between the complete erosion of our middle class and the 'race to the bottom' that is happening in this global economy.

Most (not all) unions and union leaders take leadership positions with no additional money or glory and work hard because they understand that there is no other way for workers to have a legal voice and keep wall street in some kind of system of 'checks and balances'.

In fact, if you look around the world, where labor unions are strongest, so too are the workers, the economies and the citizens of those countries.

 

[grkitalny]

In fact, if you look around the world, where labor unions are strongest, so too are the workers, the economies and the citizens of those countries.

Yes, you are SO right...I mean just look at Italy and Alitalia.....

*Shrug*

 

[dapoes]

In fact, if you look around the world, where labor unions are strongest, so too are the workers, the economies and the citizens of those countries.

Just as grkitalny referred to. Danny, you may want to check your facts on that statement...

 

[Danny Campbell]

http://www.afacolganair.org/aefiles/WorkerRights.pdf

 

[grkitalny]

http://www.afacolganair.org/aefiles/WorkerRights.pdf

Danny,

1) You know posting AFA inspired data is no different than Delta posting Delta Mgt inspired data.

2) While on the top the data you posted looks great, you still have not answered the question:

In organizations where unions are present, or in countries where unions are the majority, how has the success been represented? I look at Alitalia, Olympic, Air France, etc. as key examples...

If you can come back with government backed statistics, I will be more than happy to accept your "employees fair better with union" doctrine.

 

[getitgoin]

Danny,

1) You know posting AFA inspired data is no different than Delta posting Delta Mgt inspired data.

2) While on the top the data you posted looks great, you still have not answered the question:

In organizations where unions are present, or in countries where unions are the majority, how has the success been represented? I look at Alitalia, Olympic, Air France, etc. as key examples...

If you can come back with government backed statistics, I will be more than happy to accept your "employees fair better with union" doctrine.

Surely you jest. "Government backed statistics", you mean the same federal government that wants to privatize social security. Presently it costs 1% to administer s/s. The estimate for the first year administration cost under a privatized system is 20%.
Then there's the foreign trade and illegal immigration that the federal government backs that is destroying the tax base that this whole country depends on.
Let's just call it like it is... The federal government is bankrupting the country.
You want government stats ? Personnally, I'll trust union stats, my wide open eyes, and history. The labor unions built the middle-class, while under duress from greedy business men.

 

[getitgoin]

http://www.afacolganair.org/aefiles/WorkerRights.pdf

Danny, holly mackerel is the whole country blind? Do we need to loose everything before there's an awakening? Mankind, in the U.S. is an iffy prospect, at best.

 

[dapoes]

http://www.afacolganair.org/aefiles/WorkerRights.pdf

Again, any AFA statistics can hardly be relied upon as true or accurate. Would rather see something via third party. Plus how is AFA going to "make it all better"?

 

[B727guy]

In fact, if you look around the world, where labor unions are strongest, so too are the workers, the economies and the citizens of those countries.

That certainly appears to be a true statement. Look at France, Germany, and most European countries. They are heavily unionized. They have strong economies with a strong currency. Workers have excellent benfits (many countries start at 5 weeks of vacation and go up from there) and safe, worker friendly work environments. When is the last time you saw a European airline agent standing at the check-in counter and lifting bags?

 

[Danny Campbell]

The entire article was in a CWA newsletter and can be found here; http://files.cwa-union.org/national/news/c...fs/0703news.pdf

Not even corporate America denies the statistics - so if somebody knows something the rest of us don't, by all means publish what is wrong with these stats.

As Americans, we would be stupid to not recognize and admit that when our labor unions (and collective bargaining) decline (and when corporations have an unfair influence over government policy decisions), it is the middle class and good jobs that suffer. This isn't rocket science, folks....it is as plain as the nose on your face. Look at any trends in wages, health care, etc... and there is a direct correlation between the success of labor unions and those gains. Likewise, if you look at the past 8 eight years (which has been more hostile toward unions since the 1890's) and you see sharp declines or stagnation in wages, increases in bankruptcies, rising health care costs, etc...

In our industry, look at the same trends. Almost immediately upon the 'anti-union' controlled House, Senate and White House that took office in 2001 our industry began a quick decline over the highly profitable late 1990's. And, this began BEFORE Sept. 11th. Now, in 2008 (the last year of the Bush Whitehouse) -- compare your wages, benefits and working conditions to those in 1998 or 1999

 

[SKY HIGH]

Again, any AFA statistics can hardly be relied upon as true or accurate. Would rather see something via third party. Plus how is AFA going to "make it all better"?

ASK HER:

Unions To Fight For Sacked
Non-Unionised Flight-Attendant
From Airline Industry Information, Jan 12, 2000

Two flights attendants unions have taken up the case of a non-unionised flight attendant at Delta Air Lines who was fired after the airline alleged she provided a `substitute` urine sample during a random drug test.

Yasuko Ishikawa has denied the allegation, saying that she was mostly vegetarian, weighed less than 100 pounds and had drunk a lot of water before the sample, which she maintains was legitimate. Ishikawa also said that a test she got done privately after the incident was also `dilute,` (showed low levels of creatinine, the metabolite found in urine) like the one taken by Delta Air Lines and did not show any signs of drugs.


Delta Drug Testing Debacle; Airline's Bad Drug Testing Policies Hurt Good Employees, Says Association of Flight Attendants.
AFA Demands Reinstatement of Unjustly Fired Flight Attendants

From PR Newswire, April 7, 2000 -- The Association of Flight Attendants, AFL-CIO, urged Delta Air Lines CEO Leo Mullin today to fix the airline's drug testing program which has resulted in the firing of flight attendants who did not test positive for drug use.

"We support the idea of a drug free workplace, but we also believe in fairness," said Patricia Friend, president of the Association of Flight Attendants. "The results of recent tests call into question Delta's drug testing program. Delta should bring back all those who were fired while it makes the changes needed to restore the flight attendants faith in the integrity of the testing process."

 

[dapoes]

That certainly appears to be a true statement. Look at France, Germany, and most European countries. They are heavily unionized. They have strong economies with a strong currency. Workers have excellent benfits (many countries start at 5 weeks of vacation and go up from there) and safe, worker friendly work environments. When is the last time you saw a European airline agent standing at the check-in counter and lifting bags?

That has not always been the case, not to long ago the dollar was much stronger. Dont think that the most recent few years economic status has always been this way. Nor is it a case that it will be in the future. Such is the ebb and flow of global economies.

It would be a stretch to say the reason for the strong European economy is due to unionization as well. Even when there economies where in the gutter, they still had union participation.

 

[metopower]

ASK HER:

Unions To Fight For Sacked
Non-Unionised Flight-Attendant
From Airline Industry Information, Jan 12, 2000

Two flights attendants unions have taken up the case of a non-unionised flight attendant at Delta Air Lines who was fired after the airline alleged she provided a `substitute` urine sample during a random drug test.

Yasuko Ishikawa has denied the allegation, saying that she was mostly vegetarian, weighed less than 100 pounds and had drunk a lot of water before the sample, which she maintains was legitimate. Ishikawa also said that a test she got done privately after the incident was also `dilute,` (showed low levels of creatinine, the metabolite found in urine) like the one taken by Delta Air Lines and did not show any signs of drugs.


Delta Drug Testing Debacle; Airline's Bad Drug Testing Policies Hurt Good Employees, Says Association of Flight Attendants.
AFA Demands Reinstatement of Unjustly Fired Flight Attendants

From PR Newswire, April 7, 2000 -- The Association of Flight Attendants, AFL-CIO, urged Delta Air Lines CEO Leo Mullin today to fix the airline's drug testing program which has resulted in the firing of flight attendants who did not test positive for drug use.

"We support the idea of a drug free workplace, but we also believe in fairness," said Patricia Friend, president of the Association of Flight Attendants. "The results of recent tests call into question Delta's drug testing program. Delta should bring back all those who were fired while it makes the changes needed to restore the flight attendants faith in the integrity of the testing process."

Check the date .....2000....and did AFA do anything to help her but write a letter. It was ALPA that got the problem taken care of. For those unfamiliar with this fiasco the problem was with the Testing Company not with Delta. The FAA set up the rules that the only recourse for a false positive was to test the control sample that was stored(other half) . Problem is if the Testing Company is incompetent then that sample will give the same result showing a true positive. The FAA rules did not allow for an incompetent Testing Company so it assumed that it was a good test. It was not until the Testing Company was exposed that another test was allowed and she got her job back.( I believe at full back pay) It was handled poorly and should have been cleared up at the local level but when Delta legal gets involved they go strictly by the law and sometimes that is not the right thing to do

 

[southwind]

Either way..............you lose ! :blink: