Why We Cannot Compete With Luv.

[atabuy]

This might be some of the reasons Luv does so well and Ual cannot match them under the current employee structure we have.

They have 34,000 employees and 80 % are in unions.
So unions are not the problem.

http://southwest.com/about_swa/press/facts...tions%20Centers

Southwest Airlines Distinctions:

Southwest's average passenger airfare is $87.67, and the average passenger trip length is about 759 miles.
Southwest has ranked number one in fewest Customer complaints for the last 13 consecutive years as published in the Department of Transportation's Air Travel Consumer Report.
The airline adopted the first profit-sharing plan in the U.S. airline industry in 1973. Through this plan, Employees own at least 10 percent of the Company stock.
The airline is approximately 80 percent unionized.
Southwest Airlines is a member of the FORTUNE 500.
The Ronald McDonald House program, cornerstone of the Ronald McDonald Children's Charities, is the primary corporate charity of Southwest Airlines. Annually, the Company sponsors the Southwest Airlines LUV Classic golf tournaments whose proceeds benefit various Ronald McDonald Houses and have totaled more than $6.5 million over the past 19 years.

 

[Borescope]

So, what's your point?

 

[atabuy]

So, what's your point?

[post="186566"][/post]​

The point is that we are real top heavy in management, we have too many different type aircraft, and lastly, their profit sharing plan worked because they started out with the right frame of mind and it was because management and the employees worked at it.

 

[atabuy]

So, what's your point?

[post="186566"][/post]​

borescope,
Go to the link I posted.
Luv has had a 31 years of profitability. Maybe they know how to run an airline.

 

[magsau]

The point is that we are real top heavy in management, we have too many different type aircraft, and lastly, their profit sharing plan worked because they started out with the right frame of mind and it was because management and the employees worked at it.

[post="186673"][/post]​

UAL and LUV will never be able to have the same seat mile cost. UAL due to its international and long haul operations would not be able to have the same cost as LUV.

Aircraft types? Sure we could possibly see some consilidation. In a perfect world UAL would have been able to get rid of the 737's for A319's/320's. The A321 can not do the work of the 757 just does not have the legs for the type of flying we do. The 767 does great in the international arena and the 777 and 747 complement each other very well in long haul international.

Since 2001 UAL has retired the following types of aircraft: 737-200, 727, 747-100/200, and DC-10. That is a significant amount of fleet rationalization for a company the size of UAL.

The next time you are on the ramp in HKG take a look around and tell me how many LUV's 737's are sitting around. The beast are different and should not be compared. Our competition is AA,DL and NWA.

If you want to see a fleet of "one of everything" check out UPS. They fly 727-100's, 727-200's,B-767's,B-767's, DC-8's, DC-10's,MD-11's, A300's and 747's. How economical do you think that operation is at maintenance and pilot training cost?

 

[tinpadro]

I wonder if we could do a three part plan: Use 777 for international, Airbus for TED and the whole domestic system with the exception of 757 for the new Economy PS service. We seem to be moving away from Domestic first class anyway with Ted. Correct me if I am wrong but didnt we try to run that 777 to Sydney? if that works then maybe can toss the 747 too. Streamline the whole operation and market 3 distinct products. I am not sure if this will work but its seems like it may.

<_<

 

[casual rat]

atabuy, you're one of my favs...It's gonna be hell for us to lose the VP of ORD's parking lots, as well as the VP of the kitchen we no longer have, but when they do cut those positions, well, in the long term, we might get over it....it might be a start. Trim the fat--not the meat!

 

[Kev3188]

If you want to see a fleet of "one of everything" check out UPS. They fly 727-100's, 727-200's,B-767's,B-767's, DC-8's, DC-10's,MD-11's, A300's and 747's. How economical do you think that operation is at maintenance and pilot training cost?

[post="186679"][/post]​

Well.....They do only have one pay scale for the pilots. I *guess* that's something?

 

[magsau]

Well.....They do only have one pay scale for the pilots. I guess that's something?

[post="186723"][/post]​

Pilot pay aside, you still have to train for all those aircraft types, you have to have maintenance spares for all those aircraft, engines, avionics not to mention mechanic training and how about all those different tire sizes.

IMO, the UPS airplane buyer would be the guy I would like to pitch something to. He/She seems easily swayed.

 

[BigRed1]

Ya know what, if UAL was hedged at 25 bucks a barrell for the next three years like SW, we would be making 500 million per year instead of losing it. Is UAL as efficient? Maybe not. But these companies are two different animals and I'm sick and tired of so-called "experts" saying how we need to be like Southwest.

If UAL's fuel bill wasn't 1 billion dollars higher this year, our pensions would not be on the block and we would all be patting ourselves on the back saying what a great job we all did restructuring.

Yes, we are still top heavy in management. But it really is the fuel costs right now. 1 billion dollars people. 1 BILLION DOLLARS HIGHER THAN LAST YEAR!

My hope is that we dig deeper and become even more efficient and productive. Then, when and if the damn oil guys stop bleeding our industry to death, we can all return to some semblance of profitability.

I sure appreciate good ol' boy Bush for all his help with the price of oil. Keep adding to that SPR Georgey at 50 bucks a barrell. Pad those pockets for you and your Texas buddies a little longer.

I'm a little steamed. I usually try to be mellow and fair in my responses. But ya know what? I know I speak for a lot of people when I say this... To everyone out there who keeps comparing us to Southworst and Jetblew, GIVE IT UP, and SCREW OFF!!

 

[AA1B]

Ya know what, if UAL was hedged at 25 bucks a barrell for the next three years like SW, we would be making 500 million per year instead of losing it. Is UAL as efficient? Maybe not. But these companies are two different animals and I'm sick and tired of so-called "experts" saying how we need to be like Southwest.

If UAL's fuel bill wasn't 1 billion dollars higher this year, our pensions would not be on the block and we would all be patting ourselves on the back saying what a great job we all did restructuring.

Yes, we are still top heavy in management. But it really is the fuel costs right now. 1 billion dollars people. 1 BILLION DOLLARS HIGHER THAN LAST YEAR!

My hope is that we dig deeper and become even more efficient and productive. Then, when and if the damn oil guys stop bleeding our industry to death, we can all return to some semblance of profitability.

I sure appreciate good ol' boy Bush for all his help with the price of oil. Keep adding to that SPR Georgey at 50 bucks a barrell. Pad those pockets for you and your Texas buddies a little longer.

I'm a little steamed. I usually try to be mellow and fair in my responses. But ya know what? I know I speak for a lot of people when I say this... To everyone out there who keeps comparing us to Southworst and Jetblew, GIVE IT UP, and SCREW OFF!!

[post="186740"][/post]​

For Big Red and all yall other WN haters out there, I dont understand why you hate SWA so much, all they want to do is compete and share the luv with everyone else, hopefully in all UAL hubs some day. Its not WNs fault that they are allways compared to UAL or UAL is allways comparing themselves to SWA.
In the US domestic market they will allways be a big threat, if you dont want to believe that, then your kidding yourself, what do you think Shuttle and now Ted is for. Isnt most UAL capacity domestic ??
These UAL tools although not very effective are designed to try and snuff LCCs which so far havent prooved themselves to date, the jury is still out on Ted. But my guess is that it wont last.
Finally if UAL management would have been on the ball then maybe they would have been hedged as well as LUV, so dont blame SWA, Jetblue, or Frontier for UALs problems and your pension problems, blame your lousy management team whose doing the comparising. No wonder your unions want to get rid of them.
Hopefully in the end it will all work out for those of you still at UAL, best of luck.

 

[atabuy]

Ya know what, if UAL was hedged at 25 bucks a barrell for the next three years like SW, we would be making 500 million per year instead of losing it. Is UAL as efficient? Maybe not. But these companies are two different animals and I'm sick and tired of so-called "experts" saying how we need to be like Southwest.

If UAL's fuel bill wasn't 1 billion dollars higher this year, our pensions would not be on the block and we would all be patting ourselves on the back saying what a great job we all did restructuring.

Yes, we are still top heavy in management. But it really is the fuel costs right now. 1 billion dollars people. 1 BILLION DOLLARS HIGHER THAN LAST YEAR!

My hope is that we dig deeper and become even more efficient and productive. Then, when and if the damn oil guys stop bleeding our industry to death, we can all return to some semblance of profitability.

I sure appreciate good ol' boy Bush for all his help with the price of oil. Keep adding to that SPR Georgey at 50 bucks a barrell. Pad those pockets for you and your Texas buddies a little longer.

I'm a little steamed. I usually try to be mellow and fair in my responses. But ya know what? I know I speak for a lot of people when I say this... To everyone out there who keeps comparing us to Southworst and Jetblew, GIVE IT UP, and SCREW OFF!!

[post="186740"][/post]​

Big Red,
You have to understand that I want to see Ual prosper as much as you. Maybe more.
The thing is this: If management thinks they can keep everything status quo and expect to make money, they are deluding themselves and taking the company for a ride.
It is not the productive employees that are draining the profits. It is the extra layers of management that don't produce a dime of revenue.
Of course this does not bode well for the Wharton school of bidness who want everyone to believe management makes or breaks a company.
Ual has been in BK for quite some time, and management has not figured out how to get out of it and save their jobs too. Maybe they are breaking the company.
Just a guess here.
Us air still has 43 VP's and instead of doing great, they are back in BK.
I don't know, call me crazy, but to have that many vp's. That means they have to have a lot of layers under them to justify those credentials.
Don't be mad about me questioning Ual's lead. I think TED was just a sham to protect management jobs.

 

[atabuy]

For Big Red and all yall other WN haters out there, I dont understand why you hate SWA so much, all they want to do is compete and share the luv with everyone else, hopefully in all UAL hubs some day. Its not WNs fault that they are allways compared to UAL or UAL is allways comparing themselves to SWA.
In the US domestic market they will allways be a big threat, if you dont want to believe that, then your kidding yourself, what do you think Shuttle and now Ted is for. Isnt most UAL capacity domestic ??
These UAL tools although not very effective are designed to try and snuff LCCs which so far havent prooved themselves to date, the jury is still out on Ted. But my guess is that it wont last.
Finally if UAL management would have been on the ball then maybe they would have been hedged as well as LUV, so dont blame SWA, Jetblue, or Frontier for UALs problems and your pension problems, blame your lousy management team whose doing the comparising. No wonder your unions want to get rid of them.
Hopefully in the end it will all work out for those of you still at UAL, best of luck.

[post="186929"][/post]​

AA1B.
Thanks, I could not say it better myself. Although I do try.

 

[Winglet]

A very important reason UAL (or any network carrier for that matter) can't match SWA's efficiency is that SWA cherry-picks its routes. It could care less about being a "system." All it cares about is operating point to point in high density markets using one type of aircraft and gets its "feed" from the ground.

UAL on the other hand gets a lot of feed from very costly ASM regional jets. These commuter operator companies are paid for departure and make money whether or not the seat is filled. A very sweet deal for the commuter company who can rack up profits and doesn't have to market itself. I'd love to see a Mesaba, Eagle, or Mesa make it one its own without being subsidized by big daddy airline. If the American public wants $69 seats, that's fine between high density markets. As far as getting from Lincoln NE to Chicago . . . . well, that ticket price is going to have to be multiples higher if the customer is going to really pay what it costs to operate a very expensive ASM RJ. . . and that's even considering that the commuter crews are working for non-professional compensation.

I think the American public ought to get what it wants . . . cheap fares between big cities . . . . MUCH lower frequency between medium cities . . . . and VERY expensive airfares in-out of small cities -- which would result in NO air service if the gubment would keep it's nose out of the free marketplace. The government must end all these pork-barrel subsidies to small towns. If you choose to live in a small town . . . drive or pay the full freight of hauling you to a hub.

I think all the airlines should be like SWA . . . . . and we'll see how "America" likes it then. Small town America has started to actually believe they somehow have a right to cheap airfares out of Podunckville and frequent service to boot. Well, that was ok when the airlines could afford to subsidize your ticket to the hub by selling you the follow-on fare. But now, with margins at the bone . . . guess what . . . you now have to pay the piper. Go ahead and try and get JB or SW into Poduckville. That's what you wanted, right?

 

[UAL_TECH]

Us air still has 43 VP's and instead of doing great, they are back in BK.
I don't know, call me crazy, but to have that many vp's. That means they have to have a lot of layers under them to justify those credentials.
Don't be mad about me questioning Ual's lead. I think TED was just a sham to protect management jobs.

[post="186931"][/post]​

Jim,

How true!!!

As you may be ‘out of the loop’, the focus on costs comparisons inside the ‘Lazy U’ has shifted from LUV to JetBlue. LUV is now considered (at least for the powerpoint presentations) a ‘legacy’ LCC and we (UA) must now try to get our costs down to the JetBlue formula. (of course it is not that most LUV wages are at or above ours {except for management}).

With AA at 14 VP’s, I wonder how we can continue to keep our management staffed at 45+??? VP’s?

Then there is the ‘accountability’ issue, there has never been a place that I’ve worked for that epitomized the ‘Screw Up Move Up†and/or “Kiss Up Move Up†(nepotism) theologies, as is practiced here at the ‘Lazy U’.

The statement that ‘Tilty’ used in his last press release solidifies my belief that he is clueless as to the problems of this company that he is ‘steering’. The ‘industry’ problems are being put on the backs of the ‘non-management’ employees and that is total bull$&!t!!! as ‘management’ (supposedly) leads this ship then they should have the tenacity to correct their internal issues. Unfortunately, it is far easier to blame the ‘worker bees’ and take more of their hard earned cash than it is to believe that our management is functioning is ‘dysfunctional’!!!

------------------------------------------------------------
I remember a cartoon several years back about an analogy and solution issue with workers and management.
The analogy was of similar to a stage coach and the Drivers ‘leaders’ with ‘whips’ encouraging the Horses (labor) to work by inflicting pain through the use of these whips.

The first graphic was of 8 horses pulling a stage coach with one Driver (whip) and the ‘Coach Company’ was loosing money. (Problem)

The second graphic was of one horse pulling a stage coach with 8 Drivers (whip’s) and the ‘Coach Company’ was loosing more money. (Management Solution)

Problem Solved!!!

This is a 'BIG' problem here at the ‘Lazy U’.
------------------------------------------------------------

Management will go through the ‘motions’ of employee suggestions and input but will disregard most (if not all) of it and do what they planned to do anyway. If it fails, so what! There is no accountability and they can always blame the ‘worker bees’ for the failure as there is no documented ‘proof’ as to who made the recommendation and no accountability trail.

Our processes are ‘dysfunctional’ and until these problems are addressed we will continue our spiral into oblivion.

We had one officer that understood this but ‘decided’ to retire?

Claudia, we’ll miss you!!!

JMHO & PO,

Take Care,
UAL_TECH