771 days left

[BoeingBoy]

Also, the pension payment is calculated, not based on years with a company, but purely based on age of the recipient at plan termination.

False - the first thing the PBGC does when determining an individual pilot's payment is to perform the calculations required by the pension plan as though each individual pilot had retired 3 years before the plan was terminated. That gives a potential benefit for each pilot. So all the factors that would normally affect pension calculations are used - age, longevity, final average earnings, etc.

Next, covered employees are divided into groups - PC1, PC2, etc. In the case of the US pilots, PC3 was the highest group. This division is based on age at time of termination, with those at least 53 being in PC3. This is the only step that looks only at age.

Finally, the available funds in the plan are taken into consideration starting with the highest PC group. In the case of the US pilots, there was enough funding available to pay the PC3 group 99% of the calculated benefit, leaving no funds to pay the PC4 and below their calculated benefit. If there had been more funding, the PC4's may have gotten more than guarantee. If the funding level had been lower, some/all of the PC3's may have gotten the guarantee.

Jim

 

[InternationalShannon]

Shannon, maybe you should stop flying Derrie-Air out of PHL

Okay, I swear I came up with that before they did. It's somewhere in one of these threads. Something about DC. lol....

I wouldnt fly derrie air because my ticket would be like $50000

 

[jimntx]

Why ever would you do that?

Why terminate a plan to the PBGC, only to have a company bring the plan back to full strength via a bankruptcy court? How would that save the company money? With the fees upon a plan charged by the PBGC, why would you cost the company what they would pay to fully fund the plan, and further restrict funds? Unless you all just wanted to give the federales more money.......

If the you intend the company pay the shortfall anyway, um, just have them do it.

My point exactly from the beginning of this discussion. It would be of no financial benefit whatsoever to AMR to dump the pension plans on the PBGC unless they were seriously underfunded. The person who started this was starting from the assumption that AMR would dump the plans as a given, not a possibility. I was simply trying to point out that the company would gain nothing other than to prevent future hires from being included in the plans. That is something that could be done without the intervention of the PBGC. It was done by several companies years ago before the PBGC even existed.

You simply come to an agreement that after a set date, no new hires would join the plan--they would be given some other retirement alternative, usually a 401K. In return the current members of the plan are guaranteed a pension. It's been done more than once.

But then, we would have to go into bankruptcy first, and that hasn't happened. Nor, will it happen unless there is absolutely no other choice. I just don't think that AMR wants the bk court and the public having too close a look at our books unless forced.

 

[john john]

There seems to be some confusion concerning funding levels of a DB plan. Such a plan can be fully funded on a continuation basis but be significantly underfunded on a termination basis. Naturally, the annual statements issued to those in the DB plan use the continuation basis while the termination basis is used when the company wants do dump the DB pension on the PBGC.

It seems there's also some confusion concerning how the PBGC calculates pension payments when a plan is terminated. It would be almost impossible for a 30 year employee to get substantially less than a 17 year employee, unless the 17 year employee had a significantly higher income prior to termination (not likely unless the 30 year pilot was out on medical) or was substantially older at termination.

Jim

Many of management's cuts to the agents resulted in passenger service agents subsidizing the health care and pension benefits of other higher-paid company work groups.
Management has always maintained unreasonable demands and expectations of it’s agent employee group. They have been unwilling to acknowledge the high productivity levels and sacrifices made by the agents prior to bankruptcy.

The agents gained representation in 1999, their defined benefit pension plan was frozen in 1990. This freeze happened many years before pilots, flight attendants and mechanics were affected by any pension termination Also, the agents post-Medicare health care and drug coverage was eliminated and a 10-year wage freeze was imposed.
Passenger service workers subsidized the post-Medicare medical and drug coverage of higher paid employees, while management refused to extend the benefit coverage to the agent work group.

This amounted to an unprecedented sacrifice by agents, but one that management continues to dismiss today as old news.

 

[signals]

Are we really counting down the days left until we (where is that damn OMG face?) go down the toilet?

found it!

No wonder you fools are so miserable. You need to have your posteriors examined, I think there might be a foreign object that used to belong to a tree there.

Dislodge. I repeat Dislodge!!

The Derrie Air comment wasn't about the weight factor. Heck, some have proven that shipping yourself in a crate cost less

It was in reference to you "...posteriors examined,..." comment. You know derrie-aire, or dairy air, or...er, ah, nevermind 😛h34r:

SWOOOOOO*cough-cough*OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO'a-hem'OOOOSHHH!

 

[InternationalShannon]

The Derrie Air comment wasn't about the weight factor. Heck, some have proven that shipping yourself in a crate cost less

It was in reference to you "...posteriors examined,..." comment. You know derrie-aire, or dairy air, or...er, ah, nevermind 😛h34r:

SWOOOOOO*cough-cough*OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO'a-hem'OOOOSHHH!

did he just call me fat? :ninja:

 

[700UW]

Mechanics, Pilots and FAs never had their pensions frozen, they were terminated.

All retirees lost thier healthcare, not just agents and you did not subsidize any other work group, as they all took the same cuts in medical insurance and all pay the same rates.

 

[john john]

and you did not subsidize any other work group,

US Airways refuses to take into account the 10-year wage freeze agents endured from 1989-1999 and the loss of other benefits that occurred before they voted for CWA representation
Without contract protection passengers service employees took the brunt of management’s labor cost cutting for many years. Passengers service employee’s pay was frozen for 10 years and the pension frozen as well, In the bankruptcy courts US Airways insists that agents contribute to relieve the shortfall of the defined benefit plan, this benefit was stripped from agents in 1990, before they won CWA representation. Not only would agents not receive the defined benefit pension for those years but were forced to subsidize the pensions of higher paid employees. Agents were bump from fulltime to part-time in 1994 1800 customer service positions were eliminated which represents 82% all occupational job cuts that year. In 1991 the defined benefit pension plan was changed to a 401k plan at a loss of 107 million in future pension benefits. All so Cut backs on agents vacation holiday and sick leave. Union employees benefits did not change because they were protected by their contracts. These changes cost each agent more that $20.000 in wage and benefits cuts. The total cumulative savings to the company for these changes was 334 million
Pay freeze 42.2 million
Pension plan changes 107 million
Paid days off changes 48 million
1800 job cuts 133.8 million

 

[700UW]

Why would they take it into account?

You were non-union, employees at will.

You never subsidized anyone's pension, I guess you forgot the unionized employees took concessions in 1992?

Your own fault for not voting in a union till 1999, when your an employee at will, they can do whatever they want to you.

And our benefits did change with each CBA, concessions in 1992, then it took 4 1/2 years for M&R to get a new CBA in 1999.

 

[sharktooth]

False - the first thing the PBGC does when determining an individual pilot's payment is to perform the calculations required by the pension plan as though each individual pilot had retired 3 years before the plan was terminated.

That assumes everyone is in the same group. Your focus is appreciated.

 

[BoeingBoy]

That assumes everyone is in the same group. Your focus is appreciated.

Wrong again - the calculations have to be done regardless since that's the only way to determine how far the funds in the pension will go. While only PC3's got the calculated benefit in the case of the US pilots (or very nearly so), other outcomes are definitely possible.

If there had been more funding in the pilot's DB plan, some PC4's could have gotten more than guarantee. Given enough funding, all PC4's could have gotten their calculated benefit.

If less funding were available, some PC3's may have gotten guarantee. At some level of underfunding all the PC3's could have gotten the guarantee.

At any rate, the PBGC pension benefit is not determined strictly by age as you said.

Jim

 

[phlgreaser]

658

 

[InternationalShannon]

what a waste

 

[ggiby]

AT LEAST WE ARE EXPECTED TO OUT LIVE UNITED

United is DOA..

if we had merged w/ them.... they would have brought us down faster than a concrete ship..

at least now theres is just a little hole in it and we might go down slowly

 

[phlgreaser]

724 Days left!!!!!!