AA and Pilots making progress
- Thread starter Hopeful
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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the change in APA leadership recently was a recognition that the confrontational style was helping no one - and putting alot of AA pilot jobs at risk.
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It is also the norm in the airline industry that other unions fall into place after a deal is reached with the pilots union at a carrier. What is good for the pilots is usually good for other unions... not always, but usually.
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It is also the norm in the airline industry that other unions fall into place after a deal is reached with the pilots union at a carrier. What is good for the pilots is usually good for other unions... not always, but usually.
OP
Hopeful
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- Dec 21, 2002
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No union in the history of commercial airlines has been more accomodating than the TWU..This union has ALWAYS given the company what they want....Nothing is more evident than the 1983 contract....Yet, the company still wants more and more and more...
This company will be in for a rude awakening if they were to lose their lapdog union.
I hate to a pessimist but the only reasons why they are making progress is because
no economics isssues are being discussed. Wait and see till they get to the last
4 or 5 articles of the articles that really matter. The negotiations will stall just
the negotiations with with the TWU and APFA.
Wouldn't those "investors" want to see those labor issues resolved thru minimal (if any) pay increases?
Note: I currently have no position in AMR common stock (neither long nor short).
OP
Hopeful
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Well, since investors could care less about the employees of the companies they invest in, I too could care less about investor's decreased portfolio value..
If that attitude is good enough for them, then my attitude should also be good enough for them.
Frank Szabo
Veteran
The TWU performs many office-type functions (and in some case, quite well) the company should be doing for itself and the employees - otherwise, the "union" (specifically, the International) is worthless, redundant, and is a drain on the workers' finances (dues extraction) for all the good they do.
Unfortunately, one only has to look at the "soupervisor quals" thread to see how far removing the TWU alone would get us. The company would be on a rampage if their pet were to be neutered and nothing but those who aid the present soupervision in their quest to appear relevant - ie, not exactly those whom a reasonable person would trust, would remain.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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It is very possible that reports of progress are merely window dressing if the core economic issues remain unaddressed.... but I also think that AA recognizes that they will never gain productivity improvements if they are asking for concessions without any growth potential. It is a whole lot easier to ask the pilots to improve their work rules if they see the company growing....
that is probably why they also went ahead and ordered the 77Ws even apparently without a pay rate for the type.... they are a huge incentive to the pilots of future growth not only in the size of the airline and its int'l ops but also in the prestige and pay that come from a large longhaul widebody. As has been noted, AA has good enough terms with Boeing that they can order planes and turn around and lease them back at a profit - and that is with the 738....that is what DL did with its 738 orders for several years, choosing instead to buy used aircraft - and NW to go along w/ a couple hundred Airbi. The 773 probably has the potential for even better margins for AA should they fail to be able to reach a contract with the pilots... and Boeing was more than happy to have a US customer for what is effectively becoming its highest profile airplane.
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Investors do want to see AA's problems corrected... but there is nothing about investors that prevents them from seeing them take care of employees....
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there is enough evidence in the larger business world that good employee relations to produce healthier companies... it is up to mgmt to create a good business plan that doesn't require stepping on employees in order for the company to succeed.
that is probably why they also went ahead and ordered the 77Ws even apparently without a pay rate for the type.... they are a huge incentive to the pilots of future growth not only in the size of the airline and its int'l ops but also in the prestige and pay that come from a large longhaul widebody. As has been noted, AA has good enough terms with Boeing that they can order planes and turn around and lease them back at a profit - and that is with the 738....that is what DL did with its 738 orders for several years, choosing instead to buy used aircraft - and NW to go along w/ a couple hundred Airbi. The 773 probably has the potential for even better margins for AA should they fail to be able to reach a contract with the pilots... and Boeing was more than happy to have a US customer for what is effectively becoming its highest profile airplane.
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Investors do want to see AA's problems corrected... but there is nothing about investors that prevents them from seeing them take care of employees....
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there is enough evidence in the larger business world that good employee relations to produce healthier companies... it is up to mgmt to create a good business plan that doesn't require stepping on employees in order for the company to succeed.
The profit margins aren't real impressive on an airplane that is sitting on the ramp without pilots unless a payrate is negotiated for it. Since a side letter will not be signed to fly it, AMR will have to get a complete pilot contract signed in order for the jet to fly one passenger.
Maybe they can park it near the airport entrances and sell ad space to companies like Go-Daddy
UAL parked 747-400's, Delta parked MD11's, AA will park 777-300's unless a deal is reached. Maybe Boeing will forgive the payments for awhile.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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my point is that AA could easiy sell/lease the aircraft if it can't get a pilot agreement and make alot of money in the process....thus, there is little risk to AA to order them w/o a pilot agreement.
The hopes are certainly that AA pilots will fly it to expand the AA network but AA hasn't put alot at risk given the backlog of 77Ws on Boeing's books.
The hopes are certainly that AA pilots will fly it to expand the AA network but AA hasn't put alot at risk given the backlog of 77Ws on Boeing's books.
Super FLUF
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- Jun 10, 2011
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The article is laughable. The same number of issues have been on the table for several years.
The only thing is that now, mysteriously, the company wants a deal done ASAP. IOW, they want something, or are up to something. They don't just obfuscate for years only to all of a sudden want a deal for no reason.
I will say that there will be modest improvements in productivity that are tied to growth metrics. From what I have heard, the growth metrics have to be hit BEFORE and productivity increases occur. I am wondering how much of an impact we will see from the productivity increases anyways, as most pilots pick up time every month. The only ones that are screwed are the small number of senior FOs and CAs that conflict bid and collect guarantee every month by only flying one or two trips.
BTW, FWIW, the Chief Pilot has hinted we may see something (like a deal with Airbus) at the Paris Air Show, which starts in a couple of days. Hopefully, good things are coming soon.
The only thing is that now, mysteriously, the company wants a deal done ASAP. IOW, they want something, or are up to something. They don't just obfuscate for years only to all of a sudden want a deal for no reason.
I will say that there will be modest improvements in productivity that are tied to growth metrics. From what I have heard, the growth metrics have to be hit BEFORE and productivity increases occur. I am wondering how much of an impact we will see from the productivity increases anyways, as most pilots pick up time every month. The only ones that are screwed are the small number of senior FOs and CAs that conflict bid and collect guarantee every month by only flying one or two trips.
BTW, FWIW, the Chief Pilot has hinted we may see something (like a deal with Airbus) at the Paris Air Show, which starts in a couple of days. Hopefully, good things are coming soon.
Pocketrocket
Newbie
- Jun 8, 2011
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WHO CARES MEN!!!!! I JUST WANT MY UPGRADE AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ALLL THOSE SUCKERS BELOW ME WON'T MESS WITH THE ROCKET!!!!!!
Easy? Who would want to build a business plan using equipment that may not be available once a union at the company they are leasing it from gets a contract ? Mach 85 gave examples of what other carriers have done, do you have any examples where the airline simply leased out aircraft that they could not fly due to contractual conflicts with their pilots?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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whether it has to do with a pilot contract is not the point, Bob. The point is that airlines lease aircraft out to other carriers all the time... if AA doesn't have a contract at a certain point in time, the aircraft could well be leased. And once they are leased out, they may well not be back as part of the AA fleet for a long time. The point is that AA isn't going to sit around wiith billions of dollars of aircraft sitting around on the tarmac waiting for their unions to come to agreements even if other US airlines have done it before- nor are they going to expect those aircraft to be available to AA if they pass a point in time when it is deemed to high of a risk to keep them in the fleet and they could make money for AA flying for someone else.
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Given that interior fittings of aircraft happen in the last few months before delivery, it is very possible that AA already has a date in mind beyond which they will either sell the aircraft or put them on the lease market. They could be leased with an AA-specific interior but their value will be higher if a buyer/leaser is able to provide input into the furnishings.
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Given that interior fittings of aircraft happen in the last few months before delivery, it is very possible that AA already has a date in mind beyond which they will either sell the aircraft or put them on the lease market. They could be leased with an AA-specific interior but their value will be higher if a buyer/leaser is able to provide input into the furnishings.
