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When one understands the accounting procedures, one realizes overall debt wasn't paid down by fantasy but by income that could be excluded from the incoome side via GAAP procedures. $20 billion in debt down to $11 billion in 6 years (IIR) - they can certainly afford to give some of that to the troops while still paying down the "cards".

Goose, AA has not paid down $9 billion of debt since the concessions were imposed on you. Not even close.

AA's net debt has declined some, mainly because its cash balance has grown substantially while some debt was paid down in 2004-08. Since 2008, however, AA has re-borrowed all it paid down and then some. Net debt is total debt minus the cash balance. In 2002, when the cash balance was just over a billion, the net debt was almost as large as the total debt. A couple years ago, when AA's cash balance hit $6 billion, its net debt was, of course, reduced.

FWAAA - Since you're obviously up on the accounting rules, how about doing everyone a favor and explain the GAAP accounting procedure that allows for income to be hidden by using said income to repay debt? A corporation does not lower its debt by borrowing more nor does debt go down by wiggling one's nose or by alien activity yet the debt of AMR has dropped since the 2003 lies and give-backs, according to the report filed with the SEC. Are they lying?

Since 2003, AA has sold about $2 billion of new stock in several different stock offerings. In that same time, AA has sold assets like its stakes in Orbitz and Hotwire and the reservation system of which TWA was part-owner (I can't remember which one). AA has also sold its stake in ARINC and recently sold American Beacon. All together, those assets brought about $2 billion of cash. So by furniture burning, AA has added about $4 billion to its cash balance.

Helping bolster the cash balance was the cash flow from operations. Overly simplified, cash flow is determined by adding back non-cash expenses (like depreciation and amortization) to the net income (or net loss).

When AA buys an airplane, it doesn't write off the entire purchase price the year it buys it. Instead, accountants demand that it be written off slowly - say, over 30 or 40 years. So each year, a portion of all those shiny 777s and 738s bought 1999-2003 (as well as all the prior airplane purchases, like 767s and 757s and MD-80s) is subtracted on the income statement. If the airline is going to keep replacing old airplanes, it really should be able to profit enough to cover that percentage written off each year. But since the concessions were imposed, AA's cash flow has been barely positive. AA hasn't earned enough to really pay for all the airplanes it bought 10 years ago.

Since 2001, AA has radically changed. For the several years before then, AA would post profits of half a billion to a billion a year (and sometimes more) even AFTER the depreciation expense and AFTER paying profit sharing of roughly $300 million a year to the employees. But for nearly all of this decade, AA's year to year goal has been simply preserving enough cash to cover the next disaster, be it fuel price spikes to $147/bbl or another war or another SARS event or a crippling recession where revenue falls by more than 20% year over year.

I don't see any hidden income - it's all out there in the open. But it's like you or Bob selling your sofa and dining room set and depositing the money to make certain that your checks won't bounce in the coming months. Would you seriously entertain a request from your kids for more money? But Dad, we saw that cash you got from selling the furniture. Would you give your housekeeper or gardener a raise just because you sold some assets? I wouldn't. The AA paycheck is still rediced, even though you added some cash to your balance sheet. Well, fares are still down. Not just at AA, but at every airline.

Since the concessions were imposed, AA has reported net income in two years. The other years have shown losses. 2009 will show huge losses. Regardless of the cause you want to assign to those losses (clueless, incompetent management or just really bad luck shared by every legacy airline), the fact is that AA's operating income hasn't covered its expenses since 2001.

I'm not particularly confident that AA's income will ever cover its expenses again.

In my view, Arpey made a valiant effort at righting the ship. He paid down a little debt, raised some cash, imposed massive concessions on the employees without terminating the pilot pension (and spending wildly in bankruptcy like UA did). In the process, he looted enough gold thru the PUP/PSP plans so that he's set for life. I suspect that he'll muddle along trying to keep AA's head above the waves, but in the end, I don't see a return to the late 1990s heyday. Oil is still around $80/bbl despite a deep recession. Imagine what it will cost if the economy improves and demand increases. Treading water isn't the key to long-term success.

Unfortunately, I don't see Arpey and the other management team having what it takes to actually climb out of the water for the long-term. Carty thought the effects of September 11 would be short-lived (no doubt everyone hoped that). Turns out those effects continued for a long time, depressing AA's income until shortly before the recent boom ended. AA's yield finally recovered, just in time for oil to quadruple in price.

Unless you're very close to retirement, it's delusional (in my view) to think working for AA will ever resemble the prosperity enjoyed in 1994-2001. If you're under 50, you aren't too old to find employment (in your current field or a new occupation) that will support your family. Inertia will cause many current employees to continue muddling along with Arpey until the end, but that won't be satisfying, either financially or emotionally.
 
You are forgetting that at NWA the other unions on the property stepped up and helped the company bust AMFA. NWA had to reduce frequencies and in the end they never recovered and were bought out by Delta.

As far as the quality of mechanics available today being "far higher" what do you base that on?
I would say the opposite is true. The first major wave of layoffs started in 2002 and continued into 2005 with AMFA. There hasnt been a major reduction of A&Ps that have been riffed since 1995, in that economy those guys were sucked up by other industries quite quickly,nearly all the reduction since has been through attrition, those guys arent sitting around waiting for an airline job anymore, they permanently left the industry. We saw that first hand when they started recalling at JFK, they started off with 300 names and got less than 20 to come back. Over the last five years over half the schools that provide A&P training closed so there isnt a supply of new people either. AA was trying an apprenticeship program with Aviation HS in NYC, they had one show up and she made it plain that she had no intentions on becoming an A&P mechanic for the airlines. Most of their graduates never go into the industry as other industries that pay better actively recruit from the school. So with no (or very few)new replacements from the schools and no freshly unemployed looking for work where do you think AA is going to come up with the thousands of mechanics that they would need? Plus keep in mind that if the TWU goes out on strike that includes all the ramp personell and dispatch. Unlike NWA the airline would have to replace several workgroups at once.




In 2010, I would say yes, because they are in the same boat. They are as fed up as we are.



The odds always were and always will be stacked against us but the plain truth is we have less than ever to lose. AA has taken the position that they are only willing to make things worse, I cant accept that and I'm willing to kill the company if thats the only option they present. We would be better off to do that, just like the EAL workers did in the 90s, than to accept a future of continued degredation. Its their choice to make.

I would like to add my 2 cents if I could. I was one of the 'honorable' striking mechanics at NWA. Even though NW proved they could run an airline with the mechanics on strike you have to remember a couple of things. After our first negotiated 2001 (pre/911) contract we did most all our maint work 'in house' much like you do at AA that is why we had such leverage at that time and don't forget at that time Bush stepped in and stopped us with a PEB from going on strike. Fast forward to 2005. After the 2001 contract NW made their minds up that AMFA had to go they over time methodically started sub contracting out work more with AMFA being more concerned with trying woo the UAL MX than watching what was going on at NW. Now around 2004 NW silently started to recruit replacement mechanics and setting up vendors to work line maintanence because IMHO they knew a merger with DL was the plan and AMFA was to not be a part of it..Notice how Richard Anderson stepped down as NW CEO just before this all went down and allowed Doug Steenland to be the fall guy because Anderson did not want to be seen an any bad light because it was the plan all along that he would be the top man at a merged NW/DL. As for the other unions helping the company..NW used the threat of bankruptcy along with painting us as 'elitists' to get the others to play ball..All the while knowing they were going to file BK anyway..Then of course you had Bush, the FAA and the NMB all playing ball with the company and there was the perfect storm. So what happened after we went away...They dropped the hammer on the other workgroups with massive paycuts..NOW you at AA have a different deal. AA does most all work in house (advantage to you) also AA has not spent a lot of time and money looking for replacements..(advantage you) also union friendly Obama administration ( advantage you) The other unions on the property are as fed up with this as you are (advantage you) NOW for the negitives. The economy is in the tank (MAJOR DISADVANTAGE) Then finally the TWU (MAJOR DISADVANTAGE) The bottom line is I do not think the TWU will EVER take this to the street under any circumstances. They are in bed with AA and you all know it..Good luck to all of you..I wish you the best for all our sakes...
 
With the state of the economy, any group that makes it to release will more than likely find a PEB dropped on their heads and will find their 'strike' lasts for a shorter period of time than the APA's five minute adventure in 1995.


But wait a minute. The Union Leadership and the AFL-CIO spent millions in money directly from our paychecks to support Obama and the Democrats. The Democrats are now in the majority and Obama is President. If we cannot get a fair shake in a self help situation does that mean political spending of millions of dollars is a waste? We have been told for years the Democrats are "Labors Friend". We are about to find out the truth and I suspect the Union is wrong again.

I wager that Jim Little and TWU agree to binding arbitration to avoid exposing the truth and ignorance in spending millions of dollar for political influence which does not exist.
 
This quote alone shows what a dip(text excised) you are. After being in the commercial aircraft business for 17 years I reenlisted in the ANG to work on airframes older than any commercial fleet flying in the US. Wanna know something? THE MILITARY DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY GIVE YOU ANY LICENSE. In fact, I've worked without a license my entire commercial A/C career. Since it's now going to end and all I'll have is the ANG I won't need one -- doesn't pay any more to have one. And I'm not alone -- I don't know of any other mechanic in my shop that works on A/C once drill weekend's over, unless they're full-time ANG employees.

You need to stick to flying on airplanes and shut the (text excised) up about what it takes to fix 'em.

Please accept my humble apologies for posting a brief paragraph that you found incomprehensible.

I did not post that serving in the military and learning to fix aircraft there is an automatic license, but clearly something I wrote caused you to rant and rave about something you imagined I wrote. Best of luck in your new position - I hope it causes you less stress than this one clearly does and permits you plenty of time to brush up on your reading comprehension skills.
 
Goose, AA has not paid down $9 billion of debt since the concessions were imposed on you. Not even close.

Basically we were told by AA that they owed over $20 billion in 2003 and that was down to around $11 billion in 2008. That around $9billion to me.

Since 2003, AA has sold about $2 billion of new stock in several different stock offerings. In that same time, AA has sold assets like its stakes in Orbitz and Hotwire and the reservation system of which TWA was part-owner (I can't remember which one). AA has also sold its stake in ARINC and recently sold American Beacon. All together, those assets brought about $2 billion of cash. So by furniture burning, AA has added about $4 billion to its cash balance.


So you are claiming that AA or AMR is starting to live like we live? I'd rather they burn their furniture than mine, if they sold $2 billion in stock then the investors arent too concerned about the burning furniture. Surely they have all this information available to them and yet they are still buying.

When AA buys an airplane, it doesn't write off the entire purchase price the year it buys it.

Thats because they usually borrow money and pay it back over time as well.

Instead, accountants demand that it be written off slowly - say, over 30 or 40 years. So each year, a portion of all those shiny 777s and 738s bought 1999-2003 (as well as all the prior airplane purchases, like 767s and 757s and MD-80s) is subtracted on the income statement.

Thats not really true, rules were changed back in the 90s whereby they could accellerate depreciation, lets say around contract time, and make the income statements show losses. I believe there are also provisions where under certain circumstances they can amortize more than what the assett actually cost, for example they bought an assett for $1 billion but over the 30 year amortization period they write off $2 billion.

If the airline is going to keep replacing old airplanes, it really should be able to profit enough to cover that percentage written off each year. But since the concessions were imposed, AA's cash flow has been barely positive. AA hasn't earned enough to really pay for all the airplanes it bought 10 years ago.

Well the airlines have plenty of ways of adjusting the cash flow but they cant hide the fact that with a third less airplanes, a third less people, and all its unionized people working under a 25% paycut they managed to bring in around $6 billion more in 2008 than they did in 2003. Even this year they will, with even more of a reduction in people and aircraft, bring in around $4billion more than 2003.

Since 2001, AA has radically changed. For the several years before then, AA would post profits of half a billion to a billion a year (and sometimes more) even AFTER the depreciation expense and AFTER paying profit sharing of roughly $300 million a year to the employees

Yep and we were locked into concessionary deals for those years, concessions that saved the company a lot more than the measly $300 million they doled out. Isnt it amazing how the airlines show profits when theres no contracts in negotiations but massive losses when negotiations start? All of a sudden "Special items" go from the millions to the billions.

But for nearly all of this decade, AA's year to year goal has been simply preserving enough cash to cover the next disaster, be it fuel price spikes to $147/bbl or another war or another SARS event or a crippling recession where revenue falls by more than 20% year over year.

In the 30 years I've been in this industry they've never been short on finding some sort of crisis where the only remedy is for us to work for less.

I don't see any hidden income - it's all out there in the open.

Yea right, FASB rules are more concerned with finding hidden expenses and liabilities than income.

The AA paycheck is still rediced, even though you added some cash to your balance sheet. Well, fares are still down. Not just at AA, but at every airline.

Yep, we are all in the same boat but four of them pay more than AA.


I'm not particularly confident that AA's income will ever cover its expenses again.

I really dont care, and neither do those who bought the $2 billion in stock, or bought the $1billion in AAdvantage miles or provided the other Billion$ in cash to AA.

Treading water isn't the key to long-term success.

Its what this industry has been doing for 75 years though.


Unless you're very close to retirement, it's delusional (in my view) to think working for AA will ever resemble the prosperity enjoyed in 1994-2001.

Was that an attempt at humor?

If you're under 50, you aren't too old to find employment (in your current field or a new occupation) that will support your family. Inertia will cause many current employees to continue muddling along with Arpey until the end, but that won't be satisfying, either financially or emotionally.

Well then the sooner we strike the better. The fact is yes the industry has changed but its basically the same as it has been for the last 30 years. The airlines move people and stuff from one place to another in a competitive market. The only real "radical change" there has been is the amount of success the airlines have had in their agressive campaign to reduce our pay. The airlines claim they must do this because all other costs are fixed, well they arent fixed, most of them have risen as fast as our wages decline. The more we give up the more they will simply take but one fact hasnt changed, their revenue, from the airline to all the parasites that feed off of it, is the product of our labor, without it nobody would get anything. We need to stop waiting at the end of the line to see whats left for us, we need to stop listening to their financial woes and cries of poverty and take what we need, if they cant pay it then let them shut their doors and we will move on to someone who can.
 
Please accept my humble apologies for posting a brief paragraph that you found incomprehensible.

I did not post that serving in the military and learning to fix aircraft there is an automatic license, but clearly something I wrote caused you to rant and rave about something you imagined I wrote. Best of luck in your new position - I hope it causes you less stress than this one clearly does and permits you plenty of time to brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

The spin doctor masterfully spins the conversation from impasses, cooling off periods and strikes to blah blah blah blah.
 
Should we bring up Continental again?



Really? Then why drag it out for years and pay all that extra money in wages if they didnt have to? If AA thought they could beat us in a strike and save money with more concessions they would have requested mediation and asked to be released back when the first contract expired and the NMB would have released them. Just like they did with Continental, EAL and NWA.

Why wont AA give line maint the VBR? Cost? Nah, all the VBR amounts to is basically paying retirees full pay for their accumulated sick time. The company said flat out they need the mechanics. At JFK they went through nearly 300 names on the recall list to fill less than 20 vacancies. 90% didnt want to come back, I doubt the company ever saw such a high decline rate as that before. You have to remember that now defunct NWA had trouble finding mechanics 4 years ago, well in real terms our wages have declined at least another 8% since then. Maintenance Trade magazines are already citing that the bottom feeders cant get people who can do the work.

If Arpey says "Bring it on" I say OK, lets go!

Do you really expect that the company will be able to get enough pilots, Flight attendants, ramp workers, dispatchers and mechanics at todays much lower rates to keep this airline going? Colgan Air killed quite a few people with its inexperienced underpaid pilots, are you looking forward to having that behind the controls of a 777? If those pilots were sucked up into mainline then the experience levels would be even lower at the regionals and didnt the FAA just come out with a ruling on that? With the already reduced capacity of our transport stsytem where load factors remain at very high levels do you really think that the system could absorb the overflow traffic if the number two airline went on strike? I doubt it. So dont bother trying to sell your scare tactics here, we aint buying.
Ditto that!
 
<_< ------- Question for all the Unions?-------- Do you feel the money for new Contracts will be going to Japan?----- (JAL) :shock:
 
Don't worry Union Brothers, more "Shared Sacrifice" is on the way :mf_boff:

And just like before, your "share" will go to the upper management, and the "sacrifice" will be all yours :rant:

ENJOY. I predict it'll all come true sometime after 27 September :shock:

Glad I won't be around to see it!
 
Don't worry Union Brothers, more "Shared Sacrifice" is on the way :mf_boff:

And just like before, your "share" will go to the upper management, and the "sacrifice" will be all yours :rant:

ENJOY. I predict it'll all come true sometime after 27 September :shock:

Glad I won't be around to see it!
🙄 ------ And I'll be taking advantage of that hammock strung between two coconut trees!
 
<_< ------- Question for all the Unions?-------- Do you feel the money for new Contracts will be going to Japan?----- (JAL) :shock:

American Airlines will do anything then can, send it anywhere they can, before they would give it to us.

"Shared sacrifice? Oops we meant 'Continued Sacrifice"'.

Like McCain, Lott and that other clown said in SR1327, the stockholders are "entitled" to a return on investment (zero risk investment) even if that means the workers must accept paycuts and concessions to provide it.
 
According to Bob Owens' suspect math, mechanics have suffered a 40% paycut. The APFA truth-stretchers I quoted yesterday in the Pretend Strikes thread are falsely claiming that they gave up 33%. Pilots have claimed that they gave up about 50%.

To be made whole (get back to 100%), the mechanics would need a 67% raise, the APFA would need a 50% raise and the pilots would need (and have demanded) a 100% raise.

Against that backdrop, I'm willing to bet that Arpey and Co. would gladly suffer a crippling shutdown once everyone is released and their cooling off periods end. Likely result? Ch 11 filing with even more concessions, two or three hundred mainline fleet reduction and another 30k furloughed. Arpey's probably thinking "Bring it on."

Spot on analysis. Remind me to short AMR if there's any indication a release for "self help" is coming. Oh the irony of that phrase.

What I will never understand is why those in charge of the labor groups are so career suicidal.
 
Spot on analysis. Remind me to short AMR if there's any indication a release for "self help" is coming. Oh the irony of that phrase.

What I will never understand is why those in charge of the labor groups are so career suicidal.
<_< -----I don't think Arpy and company could justify a Chapt.11 filing if they end up dumping a Billion +$$$ into JAL. Or are they welling to let JAL go to DELTA? ------- The unions could leverage this to their advantage if they'd play their cards right! :shock: ------ And with the new regulations in effect, Arpy could loose control of the company, they wouldn't tolerate that!
 

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