You would think at some point smaller airlines would learn not to stockpile their management ranks with alumni from, as Dick Gephardt would say, miserable failures. Allegiant, perhaps as a result of its move to Las Vegas, is hiring several former National Airlines executives who were at the forefront of that operationally challeged and fiscally disasterous airline. Why is the vision so narrow and the imagination so weak that these airlines don't broaden their management horizons (not to mention the skill set) rather than continue the inbreeding of the weakest links in the food chain?
Allegiant Airlines Recycles The Trash
- Thread starter airdog
- Start date
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,880
- 1,614
You think that's bad, get this: A couple of ex National/AWA guys are at it again! They are planning to start a new airline using 757's from USA and Canada to Germany and France and UK. Here's the twist, it will be all first class!
Wow, what an original concept!
Bad airline people never die, they just continue to seek start up funding.
Wow, what an original concept!
Bad airline people never die, they just continue to seek start up funding.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #3
That would be Primaris Airlines out of Las Vegas. It sure has a heavy weight list for its directors including a former Utah senator and a former USDOT secretary. It was founded by Mark Morris who tried this years ago with an airline out of St. Louis called AirOne. That went under very fast as will this one should it get funded. They are trying to raise 64 million from a private stock placement and want to fly old 757's with 101 first class seats. I will say the COO of Primaris is a good solid guy but this is a huge leap for him from his former National position as Manager of Flight Ops. I have worked with all these guys and it never ceases to amaze me that people continue to fund them.
Just a quick reminder- Lufthansa seems to be doing very well with their leased ALL business class aircraft from EWR and ORD using a 737 and Airbus leased by Privatair of Switzerland. There is a market for premium cabin service and size of aircraft does not seem to matter. It's the exclusivity and notion that you are not flying with the riff raff.
The all first class cabin can work if put on the proper routes, just ask Lufthansa.
The all first class cabin can work if put on the proper routes, just ask Lufthansa.
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,880
- 1,614
Ah, Primaris, the name was so generically dull I had forgotten it.
More info here: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf88/253877_web.pdf
Kevin Lum is a good guy though, I enjoyed working with him at HP, and Jim Carr was always a nice guy when I worked with him.
As for having a senator on board, I remember "Air Portland" (mockingly called "Airport Land") which later morphed into the dumbest airline name "The Coast" had a former Oregon Senator on their board.
More info here: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf88/253877_web.pdf
Kevin Lum is a good guy though, I enjoyed working with him at HP, and Jim Carr was always a nice guy when I worked with him.
As for having a senator on board, I remember "Air Portland" (mockingly called "Airport Land") which later morphed into the dumbest airline name "The Coast" had a former Oregon Senator on their board.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #6
Jim Carr along with Frank Schubert were very instrumental in the management disaster at National. They are both personally nice people but professionally incompetent. Along with the vacations group, the departments those two ran probably accounted for the bulk of the money that flew out the window over two years. Franke got rid of them at HP for good reason.
As for the success of all first class, where has that ever worked on a domestic basis. Remeber, all of what Primaris wants to do initially is domestic out of the lowest fare market in the continental U.S.; Las Vegas. National's first class was either full of non-revs or freebie upgrades.
As for the success of all first class, where has that ever worked on a domestic basis. Remeber, all of what Primaris wants to do initially is domestic out of the lowest fare market in the continental U.S.; Las Vegas. National's first class was either full of non-revs or freebie upgrades.
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,880
- 1,614
Well, I knew National was doomed when I saw Shubert and David Baker in decision making roles!
As for Primaris, it doesn't look like they want to fly out of LAS, but it still won't matter, as the all FC airline scheme can't work. LH does it on select routes because they can run it as a premium service. Any airline that wants to try it system wide is doomed to fail.
As for Primaris, it doesn't look like they want to fly out of LAS, but it still won't matter, as the all FC airline scheme can't work. LH does it on select routes because they can run it as a premium service. Any airline that wants to try it system wide is doomed to fail.
The domestic track record seems to back up HPearly's assertion. Here's a "roll call" of those who have tried and failed so far:HPearlyretiree said:
Air1
MGM Grand
Regent Air
Ultrair
McClain
Legend
I'm sure I've forgotten at least one all-FC attempt. this does not count the 'paper airlines' that never got as far as actual flights...
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,880
- 1,614
Ah, McClain, I remember when I started at HP, there was one of their 727's stranded at the then Dynair Tech hangar (formerly Republic/Hughes Airwest/Airwest/Bonanza's Hangar)
Regarding Regent and Ultrair, which was the one from IAH that had the dark USAirways type of paint scheme?
Lets not forget Crystal Air, attempting to start out of TPA...
How bout them Wildcats? (ASU chortle....)
Regarding Regent and Ultrair, which was the one from IAH that had the dark USAirways type of paint scheme?
Lets not forget Crystal Air, attempting to start out of TPA...
How bout them Wildcats? (ASU chortle....)
I agree on the domestic front, that an all F/C aircraft is not the greatest idea. But this airline in concept is going to fly to France, UK and Germany, right? If they are flying to these high yielding premium markets, I think they could have a go with it. But, I hope they hire some Europeans for their service and marketing areas, I can't think of too many US carriers that have anything but average F/C & J cabin service. I would rather fly on an international carrier any day for the week and again on Sunday when going to Europe, their service is simply better.
And reading the posts on this board and the old planebusiness board, our US carriers do not have the greatest track record for intetrnational premium service anyway.
And reading the posts on this board and the old planebusiness board, our US carriers do not have the greatest track record for intetrnational premium service anyway.
McClain only lasted about four months in late 86/early 87.HPearlyretiree said:
Ultrair was IAH-based, IIRC. Regent copied the MGM Grand model of all-luxury transcon service, and was just as unsuccessful.
As far as the 'Cats, the 'real' season (hoop) hasn't started yet. Don't forget, Lute is a god...
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,880
- 1,614
We also had the Shorts 360 from StatesWest Airlines sitting out there!
The best was having to walk past the old Pan Am 720B that Honewell converted into a flying testing lab for new parts! It was parked next to our bus stop, I think there were more rivets than fuselage on that beast!
The best was having to walk past the old Pan Am 720B that Honewell converted into a flying testing lab for new parts! It was parked next to our bus stop, I think there were more rivets than fuselage on that beast!
HPearlyretiree
Veteran
- Nov 6, 2002
- 1,880
- 1,614
Anyone know what has become of Primaris?
They still have a website, and promise all kinds of 737-800 and 787 service in "the future"
They still have a website, and promise all kinds of 737-800 and 787 service in "the future"
coolflyingfool
Veteran
Which former AWA/National guys are now at Allegiant? Hopefully not Dik, Schmizu(sp) that is.
Connected1
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 332
- 0
I know only of former Critter and AA guys.
