Amazing, Doogie's thoughts on LCC pensions...

[EricLv2Fish]

Now, we're talking business...

Maybe its just me, but there is just something so obscene about a Co. who dumps their long-term, loyal employees pension plans while the Execs become instant mllionaires within the year of emergence from BK, attempt to bid $10.8 billion for a hostile takeover in that SAME year, and still not consumate a recent merger with no labor group having closed their transition contracts.

Pitbull,

Your passion for the working person is exemplary and you make good arguments, however in this instance your a little off base. The executives at the current US Airways are not, for the most part, the same executives who dumped on loyal employees. Next, that 10 billion dollar bid would be borrowed money, not money sitting in the bank that could be used for pension plans. Also, is it hard to imagine the goal of management is to provide a financially stable company first; make profits for the investors second; and then after sustaining profits, reward employees. Kinda like a food chain. The real question is how long is long enough to sustain profits before it reaches the bottom of the food chain in terms of substancial pay raises? That's anyone's guess at this point, and I'm surprised no one has cornered DP on this issue yet. Most likely his response will be "We will sustain market rates". My response to that would be..."If we become a top tier airline in terms of OTP, baggage and customer satisfaction, then show us some respect and give us top tier pay.

Is US Airways a top tier airline yet? Have profits been sustained over a two-three year period? Has the pained settled yet from giving birth to a New US Airways? When the answer to all those questions are yes, that'll be the time to not back down for getting top tier pay. Hopefully any labor contracts agreed upon won't exceed 2 or 3 years. Profit sharing will probably have to suffice in easing the pain of the East give backs until the next round of negotiations. Any US Airways employee not aware that US Airways is still in a vicarious situation should be patient. Anyone not currently happy with their employment should be preparing themselves to have options. Un-happy folks need to stop sitting on their duff hoping someone else will take care of everything for them and do something for themselves. Especially the West-Tech ops folks. The IAM has been about a worthless as tits on a boar for them. IAM where are you?


Cheers,
Eric

 

[UAL_TECH]

'U' all are comical, now STFU and go to work... :jerry:

B)

 

[PITbull]

Pitbull,

Your passion for the working person is exemplary and you make good arguments, however in this instance your a little off base. The executives at the current US Airways are not, for the most part, the same executives who dumped on loyal employees. Next, that 10 billion dollar bid would be borrowed money, not money sitting in the bank that could be used for pension plans. Also, is it hard to imagine the goal of management is to provide a financially stable company first; make profits for the investors second; and then after sustaining profits, reward employees. Kinda like a food chain. The real question is how long is long enough to sustain profits before it reaches the bottom of the food chain in terms of substancial pay raises? That's anyone's guess at this point, and I'm surprised no one has cornered DP on this issue yet. Most likely his response will be "We will sustain market rates". My response to that would be..."If we become a top tier airline in terms of OTP, baggage and customer satisfaction, then show us some respect and give us top tier pay.

Is US Airways a top tier airline yet? Have profits been sustained over a two-three year period? Has the pained settled yet from giving birth to a New US Airways? When the answer to all those questions are yes, that'll be the time to not back down for getting top tier pay. Hopefully any labor contracts agreed upon won't exceed 2 or 3 years. Profit sharing will probably have to suffice in easing the pain of the East give backs until the next round of negotiations. Any US Airways employee not aware that US Airways is still in a vicarious situation should be patient. Anyone not currently happy with their employment should be preparing themselves to have options. Un-happy folks need to stop sitting on their duff hoping someone else will take care of everything for them and do something for themselves. Especially the West-Tech ops folks. The IAM has been about a worthless as tits on a boar for them. IAM where are you?
Cheers,
Eric

Eric,

Just because there is a change in management doesn't excuse the continued arrogance of managment,or change the expectations and disappointments with this current management. There is still an ongoing intergration process. This management is responsible for these transition negotiations and outcomes. The money that was bid for DL is not loan money, but partially investor money in eschange for stock in the (once again, NEW company) along with some cash from the existing company. Its a different management with the same obvious philosophy of giving "lip-service gratitude" to the employees, and cost neutral for any gains for the employee. It doesn't bode well for management to take millions in compensation in the same year the company emerged from BK and give the "spin" of cost neutral agreements for the workers. Yet, they have provided $11 billion for DL.

If the company would have taken DL, they would have submitted their own plan of reorganization, which would have included slashing service, routes that over lap, layoffs, and more concessions for non-labor workers. Then, it would have taken another 3 or so years to merge all 3 groups together. By then, you will be in the year 2011 or 12 and the U employee contracts would be amendable, starting all over with negotiations that would have taken another few years...somewhere into 2015.

This is just plain wrong. The company would just drag their feet to prevent any voting on a contract and preventing any possible legal job action. The company has no incentive to negotiate new agreements for a combined 75-80,000 employees.

I know how this works, and the mind-set is very predictable because Jerry G. is still on the property raking in his consultant fee and making money while dragging negotiations out as a worthy strategy.

DL would have been a great excuse for U to drag out any labor negotiations for improvements...while laying off thousands.

 

[USA320Pilot]

ALPA has known about DB Pension restoration since the day of plan was terminated.

The R&I Committee has held an in-depth review of this issue with ALPA National’s staff and attorneys from many different angles...and the experts still come up short of a restoration.

It is my understanding the problems are:

1. The loans obtained to acquire Delta were provided by IB’s who would never invest in US Airways if they knew it was for pension restoration.

2. ALPA has creditable authority that Delta’s “executive suiteâ€￾ orchestrated this political issue with their Washington influence/congressional delegation to put more pressure on Doug Parker and to prevent the hostile merger from proceeding.

3. ALPA R&I experts believe “you should be careful of what you ask for because you may get it." There is the potential that if the union's/company take back the pension fund, many employees could actually receive less at retirement than they would from the PBGC.

4. According to ALPA experts to obtain restoration, the courts, PBGC, US Airways senior management, and the individual would all have to agree to restoration, which is a combination of a lot of moving parts. There would be a lot of money required to be redistributed to pre-plan termination retirees, post-plan termination retirees, and all retirees in the future.

And, if the plan(s) were to ever have to be terminated again, employees would loose even more than they did the first time around due to restored fund market values.

With all that said, the ALPA MEC, R&I Committee, along with its National Staff will leave no stone unturned seeking every possibility for restoration, which includes meeting with Senator Lautenberg this Wednesday to discuss the issue.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[EricLv2Fish]

Eric,
I know how this works, and the mind-set is very predictable because Jerry G. is still on the property raking in his consultant fee and making money while dragging negotiations out as a worthy strategy.

I have to agree with you on this one. I didn't met Glass, but I did met Al Hemminway...and was a significant factor in leaping to a better opportunity. The company isn't showing good faith with labor. Had good faith been shown I'd probably still be cranking out supplemental revisions to the maintenance manuals. I was part of a great team and the merger just blew it all up. If DP wishes he had SWA he should study the book on how SWA and labor have peace.

 

[PITbull]

I have to agree with you on this one. I didn't met Glass, but I did met Al Hemminway...and was a significant factor in leaping to a better opportunity. The company isn't showing good faith with labor. Had good faith been shown I'd probably still be cranking out supplemental revisions to the maintenance manuals. I was part of a great team and the merger just blew it all up. If DP wishes he had SWA he should study the book on how SWA and labor have peace.

Agreed.

 

[diogenes]

The billions belonged to Citigroup and Morgan Stanley.

You go ask them how much they will loan us to restore the pensions.

Interesting.

You can scare up billions right out of Bk to float a hostile bid, but cannot scare up the $$$ to keep your contractual obligations to your employees (nor be forced to fund the pension plan to an actuarially sound point).

OTOH, if you try stiffing GE for that kind of loot, they have the means to enforce their contract.

That's really all that needs to be said about how far out of whack the balance of power is in this country.

For further reading on just how piss-poor the law regarding pension plans are:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P119362.asp

Compare Exxon's pension situation to their profits.

I have yet to see a reason to change my tag line.

 

[diogenes]

Wow guys,
I would love the pension back, all furloughees back, staffing of the early 90's back, the 1989 contract, full service meal service in f/c and coach. 450 we had on the east side making our # of a/c close to 800, and of course my pay that would probably be$15-$20 an hour higher at this point.

Here is one person's opinion. ALL airline employees seem to forget that this industry rarely makes money and the profit margins are typically small. When an airline DOES make record profits, everyone is ready to celebrate and spend spend spend!! You guys crack me up...US Airways, Delta, American. You are all the same. We made a few milliion..we're out of the cold...let's spend it!! Who cares about the future?

And yet somehow, we are always able to scrape up the cash for executive bonuses (when the company is LOSING money), raises (when the company is LOSING money) and golden parachutes (after the company has lost a BUNCH of money).

Company spokesmen had no problem asking the BK judge to abrogate labor contracts to save money. Those same spokesmen defended 'retention bonuses' to the same judge and prevailed.

Just more evidence the balance of power is out of whack.

Retaining the same execs that dove the airline into the ground? On what planet does that make sense? I'd just as soon pasted every airline strategy there was on a wall and let a monkey throw a dart at it.

Pssst! The Pensions Were Gone WAY Before Parker Was On The Scene!! Ya'll Need To Let It GO!! 😛

1. The planes and paychecks read US Airways when there was a pension, and they still do.

2. Doug is the CEO of US Airways.

3. Doug would not have bought US Airways if US hadn't dumped the pensions.

4. Given the timing of the pension terminations and the US/AW merger, and the time it takes to prepare for a merger, Doug probably knew US employees were losing their pensions before they did.

 

[ussnark]

Number 4 seems very very likely and is a most interesting point to ponder. Kinda like Watergate! "What did he know and when did he know it"

The irony seems lost on the affected employee group.

Sometimes I wonder about the intellect "up there in the cockpit" based on their weak responses to their DB giveaway. Perhaps they are all weak-richards who have no idea what it means to stand up for what is right. If so, I want none of them to fly my family around.

When the pilots actually make a job action I will start paying attention again. Until they stand up for their "professionalism", I must avoid cringing little crybabies.

 

[UAL_TECH]

When the pilots actually make a job action I will start paying attention again. Until they stand up for their "professionalism", I must avoid cringing little crybabies.

If they do make a job action, be assured that it will not be to your benefit (unless you are a pilot) and better get ready for a hosing if not....

B) UT

 

[ussnark]

Interesting.

You can scare up billions right out of Bk to float a hostile bid, but cannot scare up the $$$ to keep your contractual obligations to your employees (nor be forced to fund the pension plan to an actuarially sound point).

OTOH, if you try stiffing GE for that kind of loot, they have the means to enforce their contract.

That's really all that needs to be said about how far out of whack the balance of power is in this country.

For further reading on just how piss-poor the law regarding pension plans are:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P119362.asp

Compare Exxon's pension situation to their profits.

I have yet to see a reason to change my tag line.

Bless you. The first intelligent comment I have seen on this board in quite a while.

If they do make a job action, be assured that it will not be to your benefit (unless you are a pilot) and better get ready for a hosing if not....

B) UT

It is not a 2-d scenario like the cretins of PHX would have you think.

All would win due to the mechanics of how it works. Morons like Glass would love you to think otherwise. They would love to have you think if one craft wins, then some other loses. Wrong!


Any time a craft helps themselves, they help all of us. Perhaps it is so simple we keep overlooking the obvious.

 

[ussnark]

ALPA has known about DB Pension restoration since the day of plan was terminated.

You are such a liar. Every crew really should walk off any trip with you. You would lie to protect your job over anyone else. Oh, gosh, I see two people were fired on your crew. Should we look into this?

Scum like you should be caned. Uh, I meant canned. Sorta. Weak richard.

I got copies of your emails to Pollack over the give away of the DB retirement plan. You are pretty good at conveying tears on emails. Wow. the idiocy is that Pollack actually thought you had an IQ greater than 1.
[/quote]

 

[USA320Pilot]

Ussnark,

Your last post was an interesting rant. Does it make you feel tough or good insulting others or purposely misrepresenting information? :blink:
Clearly, you're uninformed, emotional, and bitter.

In regard to my comment that ALPA had "known about DB Pension restoration since the day of plan was terminated," this information was provided to me from the R&I Committee and the National Staff.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. If you want to enter into a debate I will only do so with respectful conversation, otherwise, I will pick and choose when "I" desire to post.

 

[hp_fa]

And yet somehow, we are always able to scrape up the cash for executive bonuses (when the company is LOSING money), raises (when the company is LOSING money) and golden parachutes (after the company has lost a BUNCH of money).

Company spokesmen had no problem asking the BK judge to abrogate labor contracts to save money. Those same spokesmen defended 'retention bonuses' to the same judge and prevailed.

Just more evidence the balance of power is out of whack.

Retaining the same execs that dove the airline into the ground? On what planet does that make sense? I'd just as soon pasted every airline strategy there was on a wall and let a monkey throw a dart at it.
1. The planes and paychecks read US Airways when there was a pension, and they still do.

2. Doug is the CEO of US Airways.

3. Doug would not have bought US Airways if US hadn't dumped the pensions.

4. Given the timing of the pension terminations and the US/AW merger, and the time it takes to prepare for a merger, Doug probably knew US employees were losing their pensions before they did.

Nice post. And I recall when Doug promised he was going to take care of both the AWA investors and the employees. I guess you needed a definition of "take care" to judge what happened.

Ussnark,

Your last post was an interesting rant. Does it make you feel tough or good insulting others or purposely misrepresenting information? :blink:
Clearly, you're uninformed, emotional, and bitter.

Gee, what about your statement to L4P that you would have him removed from any flight of yours. Did that make you feel tough? Was it insulting? Did you purposefully misrepresent information? Was that an informed statement? Was it emotionally driven? Were you demonstrating bitterness?

Hey, just asking questions....

BTW, if I were you I would be looking over the list of passengers for all your flights. I've met the man and if he said he is going to show up on a flight of yours I would tend to believe that.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Bless you. The first intelligent comment I have seen on this board in quite a while.
It is not a 2-d scenario like the cretins of PHX would have you think.

All would win due to the mechanics of how it works. Morons like Glass would love you to think otherwise. They would love to have you think if one craft wins, then some other loses. Wrong!
Any time a craft helps themselves, they help all of us. Perhaps it is so simple we keep overlooking the obvious.

You are correct, it is not a 2-d scenario, it’s a 1-P (Me Pilot) scenario wherein all you lackeys think you can continue to bull$hitt your ‘underlings’ to believe that “your†enhancements will elevate them based on market forces. At one time this was true as ‘Unions’ worked together to help strengthen their collective bargaining positions, however, this ‘truism’ has become a farce and ALPO has no compulsion to throw everyone else under the bus to achieve their ‘respective place in society’.

Next time you lay this line of bull$hitt out on the Ethernet, might want to actually know what the f&$K you are talking about.

B) UT