An Idea on Seniority Integration

[Art at ISP]

Being uneducated in these matters as a layman, I had thought of an idea back when, and don't remember why it wouldn't work, so let me throw it out here again and perhaps someone can explain it to me.

Take the average years served by US East for example 24. Now take the average years served by West, let's say 15. Take the difference and add it to the actual years in the west, and perhaps you have an equitable arrangement? So a West pilot with 2 years gets 9 added and slots in with 11 years. Yes there will be winners and losers, but would it not have avoided what we're dealing with now?

As a customer I am concerned--about service interruptions and operational reliability, but MOST importantly about distracted pilots--busting ATC instructions, and putting people in harm's way. I have heard anecdotal evidence of things like this happening, and I must say it has our attention! I have the utmost respect for pilots (I am one myself), but I hope that safety will not be compromised here.

I won't venture an opinion about the award, except to say that ON THE SURFACE it looks unfair, but I don't think it is truly the fault of the West or the company either.

Nuff said---

My BEST to you all...and please fly safe.

 

[CactusFlyr]

What you are describing is essentially what happened, relative seniority.

 

[IMisstheAladdinTrays]

What you are describing is essentially what happened, relative seniority.

What are you smoking? What he describes is way more fair and equitable than what happened.

 

[JS]

Could someone explain what the decision was, translating into layman's terms?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Could someone explain what the decision was, translating into layman's terms?

Top 500 positions all went to East. Then ratioed active pilots down at a rate that ended with the bottom active East pilot at the Point of Integration Date (PID) going just above the bottom West pilot at the PID. Then, all remaining East pilots on furlough at the PID.

 

[Benz M-100]

Essentially the east case was that years of service/ date of hire should determie one's placement on the merged list (with certain protections to prevent loss of anyone's present position). This would
make a 20 year copilot far higher on a merged list than a present 6 year west captain...hence the need for some sort of protection for that captain (fences etc).
The west case was essentially based on the theory that if on the day of the merger you were in, say the bottom 15% on the east list, you should end up at the bottom 15% on the combined list REGARDLESS of the fact that you have, say, 18 years of continuois employment with the east side. Once put together, the 18 year eastie ends up being placed behind someone with only a year or 2 of service at AWA. And the furloughees, most of whom had accrued well in excess of 10 years of active service on the east side and an additional number of whom actually WERE working actively as USAirways pilots in a supposedly seperate division, would simply be stapled to the very bottom of the list as new hire pilots on the combined list...as if they were never at USAirways at all. To the west, this is considered a fair arrangement.
This decision ultimately gave the west side pretty much all they wanted, with the exception of the top 500(+-) east pilots, who were on wide body equipment at the east and were placed on top of everyone since the west side had no wide body flying.
Since the two sides were SOOOOO far apart, most people expected the arbitrator's decision to fall more toward some middle ground rather than granting one side most of their wish list and slamming all but the top 500 of the other's. Hence, the unprecedented uproar.
As with many things in life where much is at stake, there are many more details that come in to play about this whole thing that I have omitted and no doubt other posters will gladly fill those in, but I think that should bring you up to speed on the essentials.

 

[Harry Callahan]

What are you smoking? What he describes is way more fair and equitable than what happened.

You sure got that right.

 

[allstrike]

Hey Id be happier with names in a hat,thats more fair hu.Hope you fine aviators get this worked out.

 

[Pennsylvania_born]

Essentially the east case was that years of service/ date of hire should determie one's placement on the merged list (with certain protections to prevent loss of anyone's present position). This would
make a 20 year copilot far higher on a merged list than a present 6 year west captain...hence the need for some sort of protection for that captain (fences etc).
The west case was essentially based on the theory that if on the day of the merger you were in, say the bottom 15% on the east list, you should end up at the bottom 15% on the combined list REGARDLESS of the fact that you have, say, 18 years of continuois employment with the east side. Once put together, the 18 year eastie ends up being placed behind someone with only a year or 2 of service at AWA. And the furloughees, most of whom had accrued well in excess of 10 years of active service on the east side and an additional number of whom actually WERE working actively as USAirways pilots in a supposedly seperate division, would simply be stapled to the very bottom of the list as new hire pilots on the combined list...as if they were never at USAirways at all. To the west, this is considered a fair arrangement.
This decision ultimately gave the west side pretty much all they wanted, with the exception of the top 500(+-) east pilots, who were on wide body equipment at the east and were placed on top of everyone since the west side had no wide body flying.
Since the two sides were SOOOOO far apart, most people expected the arbitrator's decision to fall more toward some middle ground rather than granting one side most of their wish list and slamming all but the top 500 of the other's. Hence, the unprecedented uproar.
As with many things in life where much is at stake, there are many more details that come in to play about this whole thing that I have omitted and no doubt other posters will gladly fill those in, but I think that should bring you up to speed on the essentials.

That was a pretty good assessment of what the two parties asked for, but I am still unclear as to how the AWA pilots, who in addition to new management and billions in financing were part of the airline that saved USAirways from oblivion, should have been treated in your scenario. They brought some 140 planes and they were awarded the realitive positions they had, minus 517 slots. The junior guy was still the junior guy. The question seems to be with the furloughed pilots. DOH, they go way up the list and many AWA pilots get furloughed. A WINDFALL for furloughed pilots, many of whom have already dealt with the interruption in their lives(which AWA had nothing to do with) and moved on. Or, I guess the east wanted them slotted into the DOH location on the list when recalls occur. This would have been another WINDFALL for pilots not even active at the time of the merger and would have perpetuated the lower 3/4's of the ex-AWA pilots position on the bottom of the list. Either way the current, flying, working, innocent of any wrongdoing AWA pilots see their career stagnate for the time it takes to assimilate 1500 some odd furloughed guys.

I don't see how it could have been any other way for those pilots who were actively flying at the time of the merger. All those furloughed guys bought with their seniority was the right to a recall to the bottom of the list at the former, seperate USAirways. They got the same thing in this deal except it was to a much larger airline with high operating margins, growth planned, and a bright future,if only the employees could swallow their anger, forget the past and work together to make this a truly great airline for the employees,the passengers and the investors.

 

[LCC_#1]

Well I guess the "share the wealth to shut up the West" profit sharing stradegy didn't work. Parker will tell you a different story, but it was really to ease the pain of DOH. Ooops! 😱

 

[Atlantic]

Fence the east and west ten years. Split new a/c via past LOA'S for 190's and 757's. After ten years straight doh. That's the only way this bird will fly into 2008. ALPA doesn't have to sign anything. And everybody keeps their position.

 

[Junebug172]

Fence the east and west ten years. Split new a/c via past LOA'S for 190's and 757's. After ten years straight doh. That's the only way this bird will fly into 2008. ALPA doesn't have to sign anything. And everybody keeps their position.

Oooh, ooooh.

How about this? Forget everything you just wrote and instead go with Nicolau's binding arbitration.

😀

 

[Atlantic]

Oooh, ooooh.

How about this? Forget everything you just wrote and instead go with Nicolau's binding arbitration.

😀

Sorry novice, will not happen.

 

[Henderfuzz]

Sorry novice, will not happen.

Hay I got an Idea how about lets just shut the airline down and let everyone just walk away and find new work.
Since its apparent we can't get along.
Or maybe just start all over again New name new airline and we all start from 0.

 

[b737fo]

Fence the east and west ten years. Split new a/c via past LOA'S for 190's and 757's. After ten years straight doh. That's the only way this bird will fly into 2008. ALPA doesn't have to sign anything. And everybody keeps their position.

And this will? (notice I did not resort to name calling)