I was wondering what the reason for having four engines on the Ba-146 airliner ? It would seem to me that four engines would be two times the cost of a twin engine jet as far as fuel lines, engine controls and instruments and cost of maintaince to the engines ect. Yet a fair amount of the jets were sold to operators around the world before it went out of production. What was the selling advantage to the airliners who bought it ?
Ba-146
- Thread starter ta152
- Start date
I flew the airplane years ago and remember one night a guy got on and said to me, "I am not flying an airplane this small that needs four engines to flyi"
Having said that, at the time the 146 was designed the only real engine choices were the PW JT series and the large CF and RR bybass engines. The only good choice was the Avco/Lycoming ALF engine that was available at the time. Not enough thrust for only two engines so four were needed. Also, the rules for what to do with an engine out differ with a four engine airplane versus a two engine airplane (see BA 747 engine out from LAX to MAN) The airplane was also keyed for third world operations. It had tremendous short field capability and could land on some marginal strips if neccessary. You could take-off using a flap setting of 30degrees. If you are a pilot you would think 30degrees for t/o and say I must be mad. But that is the honest truth. 30 degree flap t/o's and the airplane would hover into the air nose low like a b-52.
All told I think it was a grand airplane to fly. I had a chance to fly brand new off the assembly line versions in the mid-80's and will always have fond spot in my heart for the machine. While it was slow in cruise MMO.65 and bit cantankerous mtc. wise it was a pleasure to fly. Very stable and comfy cockpit. Like the 727 if you could see the pavement ahead of you, you could land. It would come down like a rock if it had to.
Good memories of the fun times in my career. Thanks for starting this thread.
Having said that, at the time the 146 was designed the only real engine choices were the PW JT series and the large CF and RR bybass engines. The only good choice was the Avco/Lycoming ALF engine that was available at the time. Not enough thrust for only two engines so four were needed. Also, the rules for what to do with an engine out differ with a four engine airplane versus a two engine airplane (see BA 747 engine out from LAX to MAN) The airplane was also keyed for third world operations. It had tremendous short field capability and could land on some marginal strips if neccessary. You could take-off using a flap setting of 30degrees. If you are a pilot you would think 30degrees for t/o and say I must be mad. But that is the honest truth. 30 degree flap t/o's and the airplane would hover into the air nose low like a b-52.
All told I think it was a grand airplane to fly. I had a chance to fly brand new off the assembly line versions in the mid-80's and will always have fond spot in my heart for the machine. While it was slow in cruise MMO.65 and bit cantankerous mtc. wise it was a pleasure to fly. Very stable and comfy cockpit. Like the 727 if you could see the pavement ahead of you, you could land. It would come down like a rock if it had to.
Good memories of the fun times in my career. Thanks for starting this thread.
Thank you for the information. I did not know about the lack of engine choices. When you said it would come down like a rock it reminded me , did'nt Prince Charles damage one trying to land years ago and let the Captain take the blame ?
I like to watch the aircraft land and deploy the neat air brakes in back. Do these alone slow the aircraft or do they have reverse thrust on the engines also ? I have not had a chance to ride in one yet. Seems as NorthWest Airlines is the few operators in this country.
I like to watch the aircraft land and deploy the neat air brakes in back. Do these alone slow the aircraft or do they have reverse thrust on the engines also ? I have not had a chance to ride in one yet. Seems as NorthWest Airlines is the few operators in this country.
SegmentKing
Veteran
I've never had a rough landing in a BAe 146... always been very smooth & soft. I do know that you want to avoid the seats under the wing -- smaller overhead bins and you can hear the hydraulic pumps/actuators and its quite loud, especially when retracting the flaps!
quite possibly the quietest jet I've ever been on.
quite possibly the quietest jet I've ever been on.
The 146 was a misoptimized (if that's a word) design. It was optimized for STOl operations, and for low low noise. I'm not sure what the engine choices were, but noise was a big factor for going for 4 smaller, low rotational speed turbofans, rather than 2 larger ones.
Of course, the market for STOL, ultra-low-noise aircraft is pretty much limited to opeartors to Vail CO, London City, Verona and a handful of other places. If they'd optimized the design for low-cost regional ops, while maintaining STOL-ish capabilities, it could have had much more success.
The design goes back to Hawker Siddeley in the early 70s.
That landing gear that gives such smooth landings is courtesy of Dowty Rotol (now part of Messier Dowty), who also produced the VC10 gear -- another classic for "greasers." The 146 landing gear is more complex though because of the way it articulates into a very small space for stowage.
Of course, the market for STOL, ultra-low-noise aircraft is pretty much limited to opeartors to Vail CO, London City, Verona and a handful of other places. If they'd optimized the design for low-cost regional ops, while maintaining STOL-ish capabilities, it could have had much more success.
The design goes back to Hawker Siddeley in the early 70s.
That landing gear that gives such smooth landings is courtesy of Dowty Rotol (now part of Messier Dowty), who also produced the VC10 gear -- another classic for "greasers." The 146 landing gear is more complex though because of the way it articulates into a very small space for stowage.
ta152,
The airbrake on the tail was deployed on short final IIRC. We used to put it out inside the OM and since it did not have auto spoiler on the ground we had to pull the airbrake lever father aft to get the lift spoiler to come up. It was a proximity switch set up so you could not deploy the ground spoiler in flight.
There are no reversers on the airplane as the approach speeds were in the 120Kt range when fully loaded and less than that at light weights.
One night I heard a PSA pilot being asked by the tower in SMF if he was going to be able to get down. Meaning it appeared to the controller the a/c was too high on the profile to make the airport without a 360 degree turn. Anyway the PSA pilot replied, "I ain't never left one up here yet"
Sure wish I had known those were the good ol'days back then.
The airbrake on the tail was deployed on short final IIRC. We used to put it out inside the OM and since it did not have auto spoiler on the ground we had to pull the airbrake lever father aft to get the lift spoiler to come up. It was a proximity switch set up so you could not deploy the ground spoiler in flight.
There are no reversers on the airplane as the approach speeds were in the 120Kt range when fully loaded and less than that at light weights.
One night I heard a PSA pilot being asked by the tower in SMF if he was going to be able to get down. Meaning it appeared to the controller the a/c was too high on the profile to make the airport without a 360 degree turn. Anyway the PSA pilot replied, "I ain't never left one up here yet"
Sure wish I had known those were the good ol'days back then.
Prince Charles was at the controls of BAe 146 ZE700, landing on the island of Islay ( a visit to the Laphroaig Distillery ) on 29th June 1995. On realising that the runway was a little shorter than expected he stood on the brakes, burst two tires and veered off the runway. No-one was hurt, but the aircraft sustained quite a lot of damage.
One of those British Establishment 'harrumph...harrumph....' things which is quickly 'buried' in the news.
Took a long time to find this but I knew I read or seen it someplace !
One of those British Establishment 'harrumph...harrumph....' things which is quickly 'buried' in the news.
Took a long time to find this but I knew I read or seen it someplace !
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