Canadian Helicopters Medics Unionize

[saturnman]

As an active CHL EMS Pilot, I know that many of my colleagues are in Wait Mode. Some of the most significant issues that led to the Medics organizing are the same for the pilots. So we are essentially waiting to see what happens with the first collective agreement.

The Pres, Exec VP, Sr Ops Manager and VP HR have visited ALL the EMS bases over the past 3 months. mostly as a reaction to the Union. Some of the biggest issues for us are:

1) Being able to claim on our Crew Position Reports 11.4 hrs for a shift instead of 12 hrs;

2) For Kenora and Moosonee, the entire issue of non-paid stat holidays, no vacation, and working towards a "threshold" of 2080 hrs in a work year;

3) For 1/2 the bases, the company is bound by contract to provide helmets to pilots and medics and do so free of charge; for the rest of us it is a 50% subsidy;

4) Claiming expenses while overnighting after dutying out from a late call;

5) The near complete lack of management training for our "pilot managers"; and the nepotism involved in hiring, promotion and scheduling.

I hate being nickled and dimed; and some days I am on the verge of leaving. Personally, I am not in a position to the the lead mouthpiece for the rest of the EMS pilots; (tried that once before and got very burned!)

There are so many low time, Co-pilots in the system, that they are just happy to be flying the '76 and many long-in-the-tooth senior guys who are at the top of the pay scale who just won't participate in organizing the workplace for the good of all; so frankly I am not hopeful. Although, it really depends on what the medics get.

Cheers

 

[WTF]

JAFO,

what does that stand for? Just Another First Officer?

Not quite right. How do you suppose CHL could employ a foreign worker and pay him less than a Canadian? The foreign worker has to be approved by HRDC and the company is responsible for that person for at least 2yrs. There are a couple of Aussies (good guys, great pilots) working for the company, along with a bunch of russians and europeans who go to the places that the Canadians will not go. IE: Moose.
Don't go being an #########. Prove your comments.

The difference between a Captain and Copilot hourly rate is only a couple of dollars. The main difference is the IFR allowance and the fact that the Captain is ultimately responsible. If a 500hrs copilot or a 5000hrs copilot could do the job, they would have the position. Frankly, nobody is going to give you a mulit-engine aircraft without any time in it. Just because you have 5000hrs doesn't mean that you can actually pilot an aircraft.

I know Saturnman works for them and he can confirm that the ability level of the copilots is pretty average. The good ones don't stay long. Also I understand that only the medics in Toronto and Ottawa get helmets paid for. The rest including the pilots everywhere get 50%.

What is the raw deal that the cojoes get? Take a look aroud the planet and see that the wage is exactly the same everywhere, AND, if CHL were not employing you....who would? Maybe Helijet maybe out east? And what's the turnover there??

Here are some facts:

CHC International: Offshore experience + 500hrs ON TYPE
CHC Africa: Aircraft endorsement + 50hrs on type (regardless of previous twin exp??)
CHC Aberdeen: 60000 pound JAA licence. IFR, Frozen ATPL, NVFR.
Bristows: 500hrs on type. Under 30yrs of age. Everything above....
Llyods-CHC Australia: At least 1000hrs command. NVFR.
Schreiners: Now CHC International
UAE Operators: previous IFR and offshore and multi experience.

CHL EMS: 500hrs command on anything plus your IFR and Exams....#### get a grip.
Most of the 500hr wonders have lied about those 500hrs as well.

Good luck with your attitude. Watch the racist slander. Those aussies are my friends and not friendly to ##### like you.

 

[RDM]

WTF,

Please do not compare out east first officers to anyone else in the country. I happen to be very proud of the fact that the organization I work for pay there FO's better then a IFR Captain out West.

 

[MagSeal]

can i ask what the length of time training it takes to become one of these medics, on both levels?
I know it seems like they make alot of money, but is their training to reach these positions weeks, months, years? It has a very significant connection in my eyes. To be a co-jo, I'm reading 500 hrs on type, I know it's very possible for a guy to get his commercial licence, and make that 500 in his first year, but how could you compare that to a medic who might have to train for two years before he's let loose to directly save somebodies life?
I'm not saying that a pilot should make nothing for the service he provides, but the training for each profession is so vastly different. There should be no connection from what the medics make versus what the pilots make. As a pilot, if you feel money is your biggest issue, re-train to be a medic and move on. If you're finding it's other issues where you're getting screwed in direct relation to fellow employees, give Don your $200, take your chances...
I'm sure there are some deep seeded issues at play here, and this may be one of the areas where a union may make it better, but it may also break it. Don't be surprised if other companies are watching with great interest hoping to pick up the pieces. Maybe Craig and the mothership will re-enter the picture after CHL shuts it down.

 

[graunch1]

What if you replaced the term Medic with the term AME? They train for 2 years prior to working on the patient and must work for 2 more years prior to being certified, they must stay current on all ailments. Their skill level includes controlling body fluids; skeleton and skin ailments; transplants and brain surgery - a little more expertise I would think than the average medic.

What are their wages???????

 

[saturnman]

For the medics, as a Primary Care medic, they have to take 2 years in a community college, then write the appropriate exams for the jurisdiction in which they are working. For Advanced Care medics, usually there is a requirement for a certain amount of time working land, followed by an OJT / Clinical training course (which is subsidised by CHL) and paid wages by CHL. The Critical Care medics are pretty experienced medics that have a scope of practice that would put many doctors to shame.

The issue of pilots vs medics wages boils down to one thing: We can service this contract with 0, 1 or 2 medics but cannot fly on the contract with only one pilot or without an AME available. The medics really have taken over the agenda of the division to the detriment of the pilots and the engineers, who until recently, have really been treated as 3rd class employees. But the pilots and engineers are pretty much people who will go the extra mile to keep the aircraft in the air. One example, in my experience, a medic will not think twice about calling in sick and forcing a down-staffing penalty whereas for a pilot or AME to do the same, they would have to be (and have been) pretty sick before doing the same thing. One other thing is mobility. Many of the medics have the capacity to get work elsewhere the same day they leave CHL without uprooting families or touring or whatever. The same cannot be said for pilots/AMEs based in, say, Kenora.

Many of us are frustrated by the company being "hijacked" by the medic's agenda; so are now sitting back to ride their coattails re increased bennies post CAW contract.

As far as the "foreigners", many of them have gotten jobs with CHL EMS at the bottom of the pay scale, only because that is what they were offered and they were happier to get the job than to negotiate a better deal.

 

[JAFO]

Hey WTF,

I think you misunderstood what I had hoped to communicate when I said, "Another issue CHL EMS must amend is the frequent use of foreigners who will work for lower salaries to help with getting citizenship and experience flying in Canada. CHL EMS claims they can not fill the ranks with pilots meeting the requirements in Canada."

Firstly, all of the pilots vfr and ifr I have worked with who were/are here on some form of immigrant status were first class people and capable pilots. I've shared many a pint with them and will continue too. I have nothing against them or their choice to come to Canada and I don't want them to leave. The problem I have is with CHL EMS twisting the truth with regards to HRDC. There is no shortage of pilots in Canada!! There is a shortage of monetary motivation to move from VFR to IFR salaries.

This probably will cause more misunderstanding than reverse it.

jafo

 

[Rotorhead]

...There is a shortage of monetary motivation to move from VFR to IFR salaries...

A buddy of mine recently moved from CHL to CHI, doubled his annual pay and divided his workload in half. Home every night as well. He is also an immigrant, you would be hard pressed to find a nicer guy to share the cockpit with.

RH

 

[grover]

I've heard that the C.A.W. union rep is travelling to each EMS base over the next couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see how they proceed with the medics contract negotiations. I've also heard that the C.A.W. is potentially planning to go after ALL flight paramedics in the province. AND the pilots. (maybe some sort of respect will be shown the pilots once this happens)

 

[Blackmac]

Saturnman/Grover:

Would you please explain the following:

1. Does the Ambulance contract belong to CHL or CHC.

2. If it is CHL, then ON money is going to Quebec. :down:

3. The last I heard was FTQ, union, was a major shareholder.

4. What the hell is the CAW doing their, unless sanctioned by the FTQ. :down:

VERRRRRRY interesting, NO?

HEPAC, ya, ya, ya,. or maybe I should accompany the CAW rep.

Cheers, Don

 

[HeloTeacher]

1. CHL

2. It's the same country, get over it.

3. 45%, 45% also for Dobbin, 5% each for the former heads of CHE/CHW (as of when I left)

4. since when are unions sanctioned by owners. The FTQ invested because it had to be a company based in Quebec, there aren't that many

I won't touch your last comment.......

 

[Blackmac]

HeloTeacher: My god we meet again, I just replied to one of your posts somewhere else, maybe I'm the only one that replies.

1. No problem

2. Who said there was, I'm from Quebec.

3. My understanding was 50% FTQ, 50% to other people, break it up any way you want.

4. Nobody said anything about union's being sanctioned by owners, you did.

5. Don't know what you are speaking aboot.


Cheers, Don

 

[grover]

:unsure: Earlier in the thread someone said somthing like the EMS FO's only need 500hrs get a grip.

I can't speak for other locations but our FO's average over 3500hrs with anywhere from 500hrs to 1,000hrs on type. That in any part of the helicopter industry is good experience. The ACTUAL IFR may be the downside but our group of pilots IS IFR qualified and night rated, pretty much no other pilot group can say that. (exceptions obviously)

This isn't meant to spark controversy, just conversation

SATURNMAN, what's your take on this?

 

[HeloTeacher]

Hello again Don, yes, we meet again.

I'll write a longer answer this time. Usually I'm trying to minimize my time on the computer here.

Regarding my point #2, you indicated the problem with the thumbs-down after your comment that Ontario money was going to Quebec. That is what I was referring to.

As I said about CHL ownership, my info is just memory and quite dated.

With regard to point #4, you talked about owners sanctioning unions:

4. What the hell is the CAW doing their, unless sanctioned by the FTQ

I was responding directly to your comments.

The last comment I was referring to was when you suggested that you should accompany the CAW rep. Long back in the HEPAC discussions on this site it was stated, I had thought by you, that HEPAC is not a union, has no union interests, and merely wants to help better the situation of helicopter industry professionals. If so, why on earth would you be touring (wanting to tour) with a CAW rep? That comment, to me, appeared to fly in the face of what HEPAC was supposed to be.

You are right, I often don't get answered here, but no matter.

One of the reasons I continue to spar with you on this forum, Don, is that you have chosen to organize an association (HEPAC) with some lofty goals (goals I generally agree with) and have often associated your name with HEPAC. I am well aware that your experience in the business exceeds mine and that you have willingly invested your time in this effort with no compensation. This is commendable. On the other hand, I believe that many of the ideas that you are supporting through HEPAC are inappropriate and I will continue to debate them with you. I'll do this because I'm still under the impression that an opposing viewpoint is still needed to refine things.


Grover, the 500 hr remark, I believe, was about CHL (nee CHE). They have had a long history of hiring FO's with 500 hours (or less) because they are cheaper. There are higher time people as well, but certainly not all.

 

[southoftheborder]

Well fellow pilots I have sat on the sideline for awhile and watch this debate go back and forth. Since I have worked for the EMS Div. in my previous life and flown in Canada for about 15 years I have an idea on how things work. I now am employed by one of the largest Helicopter companys in the world and yes we have a union. Having worked for this company for about eight months I see how they operate.

For the first six months you are on probation and if the company feels you are not up to snuff they will let you go and the union can not do anything about it. After six months it is another story. Most of our five hundred or so pilots have good things to say about the union and how things have changed for the good of them. Having never worked for this company without the union being here I cound not say.

Most of our new highers (or newbies) as we are called and they are trying to hire about 150 this year alone have very little or no turbine time at all. Our minimum requirements are 1000 hrs and an instrument rating. The company is looking for a two year commitment just like CHC and hopefully the will recoup there investment. The starting wage is about $44,800 per year or translate that to canadian dollars about $58,000. Not bad for a pilot with not much experience.

Here's the down side to that, I have 6000 hours ATP, instrument rating, etc etc etc and I too started at the same amount of money. The other down side for me is when it comes to bidding on a job which we have lots of that, a pilot with less experience will get the job over me just because he has more time with the company. That is the main two negatives that I see from my point of view. Top salary for big ships is about $80,000 U.S. and our contract expires very soon and they have started negotiations on the new one. More money of coarse is on of the main desscusions.

They also have to address the problem of losing alot of pilots after the two year period, will money be the answer I don't know and over the next three to five years we will have a large number of senior pilots retiring thus creating a further shortage of drivers. But all in all I see good things coming from the union that we have representing PHI.

The industry will never be perfect in anybodies eyes but things slowly do change. I have never yet met anyone in any profession who said they make to much money.

SOB