Canadian Helicopters Medics Unionize

[jetbox]

Southoftheborder,

based on your experience with your union, what kind of benefits would the Canadian bush industry (fires, oil, gas & mining exploration, helilogging etc.) gain if, for instance, all pilot's and engineers were unionized overnight??? How do you think contract guys would fit in to this scenario??
Keep in mind that I have always been critical of most union (I know that if they didn't exist, a lot of companies would abuse their employees but unions usually take it to the other extreme and render North American industries completely uncompetitive)
That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that a lot of improvements are needed in this business such as working conditions, protection for refusing to do things that are unsafe etc.
We don't get the union side of story very often so I'm just curious to see if my disdain for unions is justified or not!!! 😀

 

[MagSeal]

I don't know if this is a good comparison or not, but it has happened.

A 20 year employee sweeps floors. A 10 year employee does technical work. Layoffs are on the horizon. The 10 yr experienced technical guy is bumped from his job so the 20yr experienced guy keeps his seniority. But they need the technical guy. So the floor sweeper now finds his way into a technical job where he is trained according to the companies requirements.

Not saying this would happen in the helicopter industry, but it's not a far fetched idea that a low seniority pilot could be bumped for a high seniority engineer and the company swallows the training costs. All because the union has it written in the contract that high seniority has precidence.

 

[Bullet Remington]

As far as I'm concerned, being a union member is like fornicating using a condom with a hole in it. - Ya get a false sense of security will being screwed!

I've been a union member for exactly 7 months of my life. During that time the "employer" conducted a wage roll-back and the union did....nothing. Not only that, but in that I was employed AFTER the first roll back, they let the employer go ahead and pull back the additional amount.

From the other side of the coin, the management side, the collective agreement don't really mean much. if one is familiar with the Canadian Labour Code. There are numberous methods to circumvent the agreement, to met the dictates of the company, including firing, laying off. down sizing, out-sourcing, or any other term you wish to use.

I never have and never will be a unionist. I am of the opinion that the only people that require a union, are those who have a deviated view of an 'us and them" perspective.

Good employers recognize the value of good employees. And good employees recognize the value of their input to the company and the employer. If each employee approaches the tasks with the view that they own, not only the job, but a valuable input to the company, there would be no need for unions.

Just my opinion.

Feel free to differ.

 

[Blackmac]

Hello again Don, yes, we meet again.

I'll write a longer answer this time. Usually I'm trying to minimize my time on the computer here.

Regarding my point #2, you indicated the problem with the thumbs-down after your comment that Ontario money was going to Quebec. That is what I was referring to.

As I said about CHL ownership, my info is just memory and quite dated.

With regard to point #4, you talked about owners sanctioning unions:

I was responding directly to your comments.

The last comment I was referring to was when you suggested that you should accompany the CAW rep. Long back in the HEPAC discussions on this site it was stated, I had thought by you, that HEPAC is not a union, has no union interests, and merely wants to help better the situation of helicopter industry professionals. If so, why on earth would you be touring (wanting to tour) with a CAW rep? That comment, to me, appeared to fly in the face of what HEPAC was supposed to be.

You are right, I often don't get answered here, but no matter.

One of the reasons I continue to spar with you on this forum, Don, is that you have chosen to organize an association (HEPAC) with some lofty goals (goals I generally agree with) and have often associated your name with HEPAC. I am well aware that your experience in the business exceeds mine and that you have willingly invested your time in this effort with no compensation. This is commendable. On the other hand, I believe that many of the ideas that you are supporting through HEPAC are inappropriate and I will continue to debate them with you. I'll do this because I'm still under the impression that an opposing viewpoint is still needed to refine things.



HeloTeacher: It's refreshing to meet somebody with a positive attitude and is prepared tp defend it in a logical manner.

My reference to the FTQ sanctioning the CAW was that the FTQ is a union and one that is very powerfull in James Bay.

How many non-Quebec companies have contracts in that area?????

How many non-Quebec companies get fire contracts, unless there is a flap.

Quebec does and has always given contracts to Quebec companies first.

There is an inter-provincial trade agreement in Canada, but Quebec only uses it when it serves their purpose.

Much the same as NAFTA, which is dominated by the US and controlled by the USA.

You say you find that HEPAC has lofty goals, but yet, you hesitate to join and put your comments forward in any type of forum or committee.

I am basically trying to get this thing of the ground with enough members to form a consensus for the Helicopter Engineers & Pilots.

As for following the CAW reps around, was a joke. My idea was to offer an alternative to the union.

Maybe I should lower the fee to $75.00 per membership, get enough members to form a board of directors, hand the whole thing over to somebody new and act as a local go between with the government.

I agree TOTALLY with BulletRemington's comments.

Cheers, Don

 

[saturnman]

Earlier in the thread someone said somthing like the EMS FO's only need 500hrs get a grip.

I can't speak for other locations but our FO's average over 3500hrs with anywhere from 500hrs to 1,000hrs on type. That in any part of the helicopter industry is good experience. The ACTUAL IFR may be the downside but our group of pilots IS IFR qualified and night rated, pretty much no other pilot group can say that. (exceptions obviously)

Grover:

I am a bit late responding to your posting. I don’t know where you are based, but a quick look through the rolls of CHL EMS will show a steadily decreasing level of experience among the copilots. Since the 2nd A/C started in Toronto, we have upgraded pretty much everybody who was qualified. I know that there are now 3 CoJos being considered for upgrade to Captains but all 3 will require waivers from the MOH because they don’t meet the minimum requirements for Captaincy. A pilot was recently released from the company because there were apparent discrepancies in his logbook re his actual flight experience. This was only discovered when he started his Captain’s upgrade process.

CHL EMS is not an organization that goes out of its way to empower its employees. The medics, who largely come from an organized background, have learned to empower themselves. This is the fundamental difference between the 2 groups. The Brass have visited the bases and the noise makers have been quieted. Emails regarding CPRs, Pay Scales, benefits go unanswered. Our choices: Put up or Move on.

 

[MagSeal]

"put up...or move on"

That's a sad reality isn't it?

How long of a time frame is it between somebody leaving and somebody replacing him? I bet they're almost holding the door for each other....

 

[grover]

I'm with you Saturnman, just hope the CAW sends us cards in the mail.

As for the lessening experience level, maybe it's time to fight to get rid of the 500hr minimum. My understanding is that The Boss worked that into the system with the MOH to get the costs down. The claim was it wasn't an impairment to safety. Well I think it is and perhapes the medics will use that 500hr minimum during their negotiations???

MagSeal: I don't see a line waiting at the door to get in. Maybe there is, but I don't see it..

 

[MagSeal]

Grover, thanks for trying to answer my question, but it still didn't answer it.

When a guy gives his two weeks notice, is there somebody there taking his place at the time he leaves, or is there a wait because they haven't got anyone yet. Which I hope is a more fair fair way to ask.

 

[LDP]

Mag
The line depends on where the spot is. Moose has been hard to fill in the past but easier now. Prefered bases (London, Ottawa, Sudbury) are usually filled by someone from another base. I dont think that they are having any difficulty filling positions as if they did you would see open shifts to be filled by other pilots . As for the 500 hr thing, That is a Ontario Govt requirement, directly out of their Standards (a small publication that the Ontario govt publishes.) I dont know how much infulence CHL (or CHC at the time of publication) had on this book. There are many more requirements in this book for all air operations that the Ontario govt undertakes. I dont know if a collective agreement will have any effect on this at all.

 

[grover]

I do see many weeks going by without any replacements. TONS of overtime to cover for that.

 

[twitch]

Just an obsevation but Saturnman is correct, the experience level is way way down. Back when I started on the ambulance in the late 80's I was the lowest time Captain with around 7000hrs. at the base I was at. The lowest time co-pilot had similar time. That meant that the mimimum time that was in the cockpit at any time was 14000hrs!!!! I think at the time I calculated that the average total time up front was 16000hrs. And all Captains had offshore time. Big difference now!!! I think the minimum time back then was around 2500hrs for a co-pilot and 5000hrs for a captain. As much as I hate to say it though, It wasn't all Rob's fault that the minimums were changed. If I remember correctly it was Big Bad Luc when he tried to bid the contract in the early to mid 90's claiming Canadian had an unfair advantage having all the high time drivers.

twitch

 

[grover]

TWITCH, WOW! what a difference time has made to the experience levels. Well, time can partially fix this as well. It's time to start lobbying (sp?) the M.O.H. to get the minimums RAISED for various reasons. What? maybe 1,000 - 1,500hrs for an FO

 

[bandaid]

Someone asked about our Medics training. I don't know about the rest of Canada but in B.C. you first have to work 3 years in a high volume area, write and pass a pre-entrance exam which includes a comprehensive and tough oral exam we call oskies. Then 2 years in school, (on your days off) followed by about 6 months of training for flight certification. Now if you want to specialize in Children then I believe that it would be another 8 months to 1 year of school. All of our airevacs have to go through a flight co-ordinator in Victoria and on a regular basis your calls are scutinized and you go before a panel of Doctors (who license we work under) to answer any questions that might arise.
Things are changing here in B.C. used to be that the Government paid for our training, now it is whomever comes up with the appropriate cash and passes the pre-entrance will be trained. You might find more info from www.apbc.ca or google the Brisish Columbia Ambulance service.
As a side note, I have heard a rumour from a reliable gossip that the company that is contracted to provide the aircrafts and pilots is in some financial difficulty. Hope everything works out for them.

 

[MagSeal]

sounds like they put in the time and should be rewarded for it.

 

[grover]

I and many others still think speaking with ONE collective voice will have some influence on the management