Chip Question

[oldiebutgoody]

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On 2/9/2003 8:07:02 AM RowUnderDCA wrote:

You know, I can't help getting the sense, from these boards and just contemplating the airline industry, of pretty heavy anachronisms.

Guys, even Federal bureaucrats don't have a defined benefit pension! I mean that's so steel industry. Major airlines are beginning to smell a lot like Amtrak, lately. It's hard for me to accept that the ALPA labor strategy has, over the years, resulted in perfectly accurate fair market valuation of pilot labor, but every other process to determine labor valuation is faulty.

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I don't know where you heard that. Not only do most federal retirees get a defined benefit plan, which includes cost of living raises (show me another industry that does that), but they also have 401k plans and defined contribution plans (like the military's "thrift savings plan"). There are few, if any, private industries which are as generous to their retirees as the federal government. I have MANY relatives (including my father) who are or have been government employees, and am well familiar with the benefits. Granted, they earn many of these benefits through wages which continue to trail the private sector.

 

[autofixer]

Government employees do not need a defined contribution plan! The government takes massive amounts of money, under force of law, to pay its employees--who by the way, can retire in most cases after 20 years and then pursue other careers (the double dip).

Dave is attempting to steal what the pilots have earned in the past. We are not talking about the future. The pilots have stepped up to the plate 3 times recently concerning future earnings, allowing their contract to be gutted. Dave-the-robber saw that that job was too easy and decided to steal past earnings from the pilot group. Perhaps Dave-the-robber could come and demand a 15 or 20 year retroactive pay giveback from all of the other U employees? In fact, this is what is being demanded of the pilots; it really is as simple as that.

 

[PITbull]

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On 2/9/2003 902 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:

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On 2/9/2003 8:07:02 AM RowUnderDCA wrote:

You know, I can't help getting the sense, from these boards and just contemplating the airline industry, of pretty heavy anachronisms.

Guys, even Federal bureaucrats don't have a defined benefit pension! I mean that's so steel industry. Major airlines are beginning to smell a lot like Amtrak, lately. It's hard for me to accept that the ALPA labor strategy has, over the years, resulted in perfectly accurate fair market valuation of pilot labor, but every other process to determine labor valuation is faulty.

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I don't know where you heard that. Not only do most federal retirees get a defined benefit plan, which includes cost of living raises (show me another industry that does that), but they also have 401k plans and defined contribution plans (like the military's "thrift savings plan"). There are few, if any, private industries which are as generous to their retirees as the federal government. I have MANY relatives (including my father) who are or have been government employees, and am well familiar with the benefits. Granted, they earn many of these benefits through wages which continue to trail the private sector.
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Oldie,

You are absolutely correct, and so do I.

 

[PITbull]

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On 2/9/2003 6:48:02 AM mrplanes wrote:

Bull:

Thanks for the welcome. I still believe what I said above by the way. The industry has changed and we have all given what has been required. My point is that Dave has taken people like me, who have been in his corner, and brought us to our line in CONCRETE over money that has already been earned. Not future earnings mind you, already earned. He is attempting to steal it from us. That will not stand.

I truly believe he and Bronner and the ATSB would, and possibly will, shut it down. That is the difference between me and Teddy. She thinks they are bluffing, I do not. But now, the pilots are willing to accept that risk because of what he is doing. It is sad that HE, not the pilots, is putting this airline in that boat. He can solve the problem any number of ways. I hope that he does. Givebacks are one thing. Stealing already earned money is something completely different.

mr
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One correction on your sentiment; Teddy never took the position that the company was bluffing, she didn't care whether it was real threat or not. The flight attendants were voting on a propsal that was not livable, the liquidation part was the Company's ulternative; NOT labors.

The ratified agreement is "unlivable" even though it passed. Folks voted "FOR" not because they love their jobs that they would work for practically nothing, but because they want the time to get educated/trained for another profession. That is why 85% of the furloughees are VOLUNTARY. Many folks on this board may disagree, but a corporation who cuts wages and benefits of their employees to the point where many (and I mean many) of those employees can no longer pay their bills on time and live respectably after many years of service to a company, in my opinion, has no right to exist. And basically, what you said above is the same. If this company would steal from the pilots their pension, than basically you don't care about their existence. We all know there are better ways to solve problems. I believe all the labor groups were willing to do that when they were at the table. This Management's position was "all or nothing". What they didn't get the first round, they took the second, plus more cash, while they were in there.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I am a Federal employee and I do not have a defined benefit pension other then a very piddly enhancement to social security. Only older employees have CSRS.