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Cuts OKd in retirees' health benefits

  • Thread starter Thread starter UAL_TECH
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The free market has failed for the health care in the United States.

On the contrary, it is government getting its paws in the mix that has failed us. Our health care system is no where near free market. Our government likely funds atleast a third of health care expenses. How is that free market?

When patients (whether sick or not) are able to obtain nearly-free services from our government, they create great waste because they overuse medical resources when those resources are not necessary or of limited benefit. Moreover, since doctors know that the government (and third parties) is footing the bill, they may often "sale" medical procedures that are not needed.

You cannot reduce the costs of healthcare without reducing the public's overconsumption of healthcare. There are ways that patients can have an incentive to not go to the doctor as much or not consume useless medical procedures or medicine... and it doesn't have much to do with the government.
 
On the contrary, it is government getting its paws in the mix that has failed us. Our health care system is no where near free market. Our government likely funds atleast a third of health care expenses. How is that free market?

When patients (whether sick or not) are able to obtain nearly-free services from our government, they create great waste because they overuse medical resources when those resources are not necessary or of limited benefit. Moreover, since doctors know that the government (and third parties) is footing the bill, they may often "sale" medical procedures that are not needed.

You cannot reduce the costs of healthcare without reducing the public's overconsumption of healthcare. There are ways that patients can have an incentive to not go to the doctor as much or not consume useless medical procedures or medicine... and it doesn't have much to do with the government.

And you see light at the end of the tunnel with more involvement?
 
And you see light at the end of the tunnel with more involvement?


No! That is why I said "There are ways that patients can have an incentive to not go to the doctor as much or not consume useless medical procedures or medicine... and it doesn't have much to do with the government."

One way is to use a more in-depth system of medical savings accounts. Rather than employers (where appropriate) paying for a percentage of all your healh insurance, they should put some money into a medical savings account for each employee.Then, perhaps a much smaller amount for catastrophic health care insurance could be maintained by the employer. If the money from the medical account is not used by years end, it gets rolled over into a retirement account. This would give patients/medical consumers an incentive to only use the doctor or procedures when necessary or beneficial from a cost/benefit analysis. This would also help with the all-so-common billing errors. When it is the patient's money that could be used in retirement, they will care whether the doctor charged them twice for latex gloves.
 
The way people talk about the Canadian health system you would think people were dying by the bus load and being put in to mass graves.

And yet....US vs CA life expectancy

2000 1998
Canada 79.4 79.2

US 77.1 76.1



Go figure, such a horrible health system and they live longer.
 
Ive already given you an example, look what a mess social security has become, projected to be insolvent before I reach retirement. how much tax are you willing to pay for all these government (handouts) programs? 50%, 60%, 70% where does it stop KC? Take a look at what welfare has done to several generations, take a look at public housing what a disaster that has become, take a look at our public schools that are failing, I could go on but whats the point? You seem to think that the government should take care of you from cradle to grave on one hand but should'nt have the right to tap a phone on the other.....Go figure!
So...that I am clear on this...it's better to have a publicly traded company whose primary focus is on shareholder value determine the care I should receive verses a government? How many mechanics jobs have been outsourced in your industry? Why...shareholder value. You may dread government involvement, but I'd rather have the government involved instead of watching American health care follow the path of the airline industry.
 
Healthcare insurance was an incentive offered in the early days of labor to draw employees to a particular job and became a staple in benefits packages for alot of jobs..It never was a right but now many expect it.
 
So...that I am clear on this...it's better to have a publicly traded company whose primary focus is on shareholder value determine the care I should receive verses a government? How many mechanics jobs have been outsourced in your industry? Why...shareholder value. You may dread government involvement, but I'd rather have the government involved instead of watching American health care follow the path of the airline industry.

KC, some reform needs to take place within the system and GTL already made some good suggestions but I am not in favor of "Bigger Government" its not the answer. The former Soviet Union is a good example. Part of the problem as GTL already pointed out is the fact that you have people running to the doctor everytime they stump their toe, using the emergency room system for childbirth, etc...Don't you think at some point people should take responsibilty for their actions and provide for themselves? We have a system already in place to help the less fortunate and those without a means to pay, but why should I support free health care to everyone in this country just because they feel they are entitled?

Most people in this country can afford transportation, most people in this country can afford housing, most people in this country can afford food, should the Government also provide this for EVERYONE?

Sorry I don't buy into income redistribution!
 
OK.."12", I've got a "mixed bag" of responses for you.

On one hand, your correct...that "too much Govt....in TOO many places, definitely has draw backs"

But to KCF's point about Canadian Health care"..................Over all ..IT IS better than what WE have here.."ON A WHOLE"..as far as the WHOLE country is concerned.

AND, "Even YOU" would have come away from seeing ..SICKO....agreeing with some of the points "MM" was making....And it just wasn't about Canada Only(think Great Briton)

It has, and always will PUZZLE me, WHY the WORKING MAN, in the Hard Core RED states, Keeps voting for the BIG BUSINESS republicans............."NEWSFLASH"....the GOP doesn't give a flying ***K about the little guy. Never has, Never will.

Now as BAD as you "red staters" HATE the Democrats, at least you know "your DEVIL"
(The DEVIL you know, is better than the DEVIL you DON'T know) !!!!!
And like it or not, The working STIFF will get a better deal, from the Democrat(even if It's just a smidgen), than he'll get from the GOP !!

Ps,

Voting for (say)a Perot, does'nt count, because you know going in, that a 3rd party guy, never wins.
 
Most people in this country can afford transportation, most people in this country can afford housing, most people in this country can afford food, should the Government also provide this for EVERYONE?

Sorry I don't buy into income redistribution!
Ah...but you do, you just don't know it. You've belonged to a union. I used to be anti-union, but I've changed. I recognize that I wouldn't be paid what I am paid were it not for a union. But in the "real world" that wasn't unionized, we had to pay a portion of our health care coverage for years...in my case, about $150 a month...your union negotiated 100% from the company. When I retire from my company, I lose my insurance coverage...but according to the topic of this thread, your company didn't drop your coverage. Now they want to dump that. While I have a pension where I work now, most places don't...the pension was your company saving for your retirement. Those two things were "redistributing" income from the company to you. Now...we've seen what's happened to pensions...dump them on the PBGC (which IMHO will translate to "taxpayer" when the PBGC can no longer cover all the dumped pensions). So in my view I will be funding YOUR retirement pension because the federal government is going to be called upon to bail out the PBGC...but I digress. Now they want to dump retiree medical benefits. Because they represent a "redistribution of wealth" from the company to the retiree. And it today's world, there ain't an insurance company out there that is going to cover you for cost only...it'll always be in it for a profit. So SOMEBODY is going to have to get involved to make sure that there is affordable coverage for people.

As far as "socialized medicine" (which IS a misnomer for what single payor coverage is) - how about this scenario...the government becomes our health care nanny...releasing companies all over the US from the burden of providing coverage for their employees...in return, the government DEMANDS that the bring production back to America - especially any jobs that were offshored or outsourced because of the burden that health insurance put on a company. put more Americans to work to help fund the health insurance programs.

Bush likes tax cuts...he says they "create jobs", although from what I've seen, there has been a loss of "good jobs" and the jobs that have been "created" are the low paying dirt jobs. Imagine if GM was relieved of a $5,000 cost per vehicle - think they could compete profitably with Toyota then? Think it might be cheaper to build cars here and put them on a train rather then build them in Korea and put them on a boat? Think they might hire Americans to build American cars? Foreign companies don't worry about health care...American companies HAVE to, because as Delldude has said, it's expected from employees. Since American companies are spending so much on health care, they have to cut back on other costs in order to compete. Guess what they cut first - American labor.

And the insurance companies are looking for reasons not to cover...my ex wife has had rheumatoid arthritis since she was 19...OOPS...preexisting condition. Spend a bundle - get nothing. What we've got sucks royally. I don't want to be like Canada - I want to be BETTER than Canada. And we can. I would bet you a dollar to a donut that under "socialized medicine", you wouldn't wait any longer than you do today for medical services - unless doctors are fool enough to quit and become airline employees or computer programmers. That ain't gonna happen.
 
Ah...but you do, you just don't know it. You've belonged to a union. I used to be anti-union, but I've changed. I recognize that I wouldn't be paid what I am paid were it not for a union. But in the "real world" that wasn't unionized, we had to pay a portion of our health care coverage for years...in my case, about $150 a month...your union negotiated 100% from the company.

KC, your comparing apples to oranges and heres how I see it. The union negoitiates on behalf of its members a contract which includes of course pay and benefits the Comapny does the hiring thru screening and interviews and they decide who fits the bill. you see we both bring something to the table, I provide a skill that they need in order to operate and keep those airplanes flying safe, and they provide me with a job.... there are no "freebies" in that scenario.

I respectfully agree to disagree with you on this subject because we have very different views about what a 'Government' should or should'nt be responsible for.

BTW... you have no need to worry about funding my pension should the whole house of cards fall, Ive already anticipated that some time ago and have figured out a way to go it alone without you or 'Uncle Sam' B)
 
KC, your comparing apples to oranges and heres how I see it. The union negoitiates on behalf of its members a contract which includes of course pay and benefits the Comapny does the hiring thru screening and interviews and they decide who fits the bill. you see we both bring something to the table, I provide a skill that they need in order to operate and keep those airplanes flying safe, and they provide me with a job.... there are no "freebies" in that scenario.

I respectfully agree to disagree with you on this subject because we have very different views about what a 'Government' should or should'nt be responsible for.

BTW... you have no need to worry about funding my pension should the whole house of cards fall, Ive already anticipated that some time ago and have figured out a way to go it alone without you or 'Uncle Sam' B)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AH..HA !!

So there IS still a bit of GOLD up 'THAR.. In them there Hills"

(Had to SHOOT any Claim Jumpers up there..Lately "12" ???)
 
What's better? Under our current system, if a former employer drops your health coverage, you could purchase your own to supplement that lousy old medicare. But then you might have to find another job at 70 to help pay the premium.

If they cut the medical benefit for retirees, then I suspect since they raised the age limit for pilots, the same thing will happen to the retirement age in this country. Companies had better be prepared to accommodate seniors who will remain on the job until they can collect on their 401K's.
 
Ah...but you do, you just don't know it. You've belonged to a union. I used to be anti-union, but I've changed. I recognize that I wouldn't be paid what I am paid were it not for a union. But in the "real world" that wasn't unionized, we had to pay a portion of our health care coverage for years...in my case, about $150 a month...your union negotiated 100% from the company. When I retire from my company, I lose my insurance coverage...but according to the topic of this thread, your company didn't drop your coverage. Now they want to dump that. While I have a pension where I work now, most places don't...the pension was your company saving for your retirement. Those two things were "redistributing" income from the company to you. Now...we've seen what's happened to pensions...dump them on the PBGC (which IMHO will translate to "taxpayer" when the PBGC can no longer cover all the dumped pensions). So in my view I will be funding YOUR retirement pension because the federal government is going to be called upon to bail out the PBGC...but I digress. Now they want to dump retiree medical benefits. Because they represent a "redistribution of wealth" from the company to the retiree. And it today's world, there ain't an insurance company out there that is going to cover you for cost only...it'll always be in it for a profit. So SOMEBODY is going to have to get involved to make sure that there is affordable coverage for people.

As far as "socialized medicine" (which IS a misnomer for what single payor coverage is) - how about this scenario...the government becomes our health care nanny...releasing companies all over the US from the burden of providing coverage for their employees...in return, the government DEMANDS that the bring production back to America - especially any jobs that were offshored or outsourced because of the burden that health insurance put on a company. put more Americans to work to help fund the health insurance programs.

Bush likes tax cuts...he says they "create jobs", although from what I've seen, there has been a loss of "good jobs" and the jobs that have been "created" are the low paying dirt jobs. Imagine if GM was relieved of a $5,000 cost per vehicle - think they could compete profitably with Toyota then? Think it might be cheaper to build cars here and put them on a train rather then build them in Korea and put them on a boat? Think they might hire Americans to build American cars? Foreign companies don't worry about health care...American companies HAVE to, because as Delldude has said, it's expected from employees. Since American companies are spending so much on health care, they have to cut back on other costs in order to compete. Guess what they cut first - American labor.

And the insurance companies are looking for reasons not to cover...my ex wife has had rheumatoid arthritis since she was 19...OOPS...preexisting condition. Spend a bundle - get nothing. What we've got sucks royally. I don't want to be like Canada - I want to be BETTER than Canada. And we can. I would bet you a dollar to a donut that under "socialized medicine", you wouldn't wait any longer than you do today for medical services - unless doctors are fool enough to quit and become airline employees or computer programmers. That ain't gonna happen.


Socialized medicine or single payer medical insurance is not good. Translated, it means that a new government agency will have to be created, similar to the Veterans Administration, to OK medical procedures. The government will outsource it to India. The only way for it to work at all is to have it work like the military Tricare plan where veterans get treated for free. If you do not like waiting for months to get your surgery and have to fight through appeals in the court system to force approval of surgical procedures, then socialized medicine is not what you want. It does not work in Canada and it does not work in Europe. In Europe, you pay $6.00/gal. for petrol/gas and half of that goes to pay for the free medical. No one and I mean no one gets necessary medical procedures in a timely fashion. The CEO's are running out of blood they can suck from their companies so they now need to attach retiree medical benefits. I pay for my supplemental benefit from United and I pay a lot more as a post-ESOP employee than my counterparts who were pre-ESOP. Pre-ESOP's even have a choice and I do not. My only choice is Blue Cross Blue Shield.

The government will end up playing God and decide who lives and who dies if this is allowed to happen. This will end up as Senior genocide in America.
 
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