Delta And Nwa

[nostradamus]

Rumor, they are talking to eachother. True or not?

 

[TWU informer]

Rumor, they are talking to eachother. True or not?

[post="300623"][/post]​

Talking?

It appears to me the whole event was planned together, executed together, and they will seek merger to become ONE together, and likely get DOJ and BK Judge approval.

 

[PITbull]

DL has no unions other than ALPA. And ALPA is weak.

There is no need for them to talk to NW. Its a race to the bottom and DL will try to get their labor contracts BELOW that of US Airways.

Our Concession #3 ratified agreement will be on line sometime in October at www.afausairways.org

Don't permit them to go lower. Psychological warfare will commence and they will start on how worthless and replaceable you all are blah, blah, blah,

Fight hard, fight together. Keep your plight in the media and get the public's awareness. Managment hates that the most and it puts pressure on managment to strive for a balance even in BK.

Hopefully, Congress will intervene and new legislation will come to the floor. Put pressure on your congressional leaders to protect labor and your wages.

You have no union. NOW is the time to organize, even in BK. That will pressure your carrier as well.

I have over 5,000 posts for a reason.

 

[aislehopper]

DL has no unions other than ALPA. And ALPA is weak.

There is no need for them to talk to NW.  Its a race to the bottom and DL will try to get their labor contracts BELOW that of US Airways.

[post="302658"][/post]​

PITbull:

Given that we are mostly ununionized, at any point during DL's history management could have imposed cuts to bring our wages and benefits much below our unionized peers without bankruptcy.

The company will do whatever it takes to remain viable which I believe will include pay cuts for more than just our pilot group. If the cuts reduce my standard of living to what I consider unacceptable, I will leave.

This industry has changed. It will change further. Regardless of the hard work of some union members, the history over the past three years have shown that unions cannot prevent what is happening from happening.

 

[Beer Guzzler]

PRO’s

- No excessive (route) overlap.
- Delta’s domestic southeast routes would balance well with Northwest’s Midwest routes.
- Delta has prominence on Atlantic routes, while Northwest has more flights to the Pacific.

Con’s

- Mismatched aircraft fleets (the only aircraft model the two have in common is the Boeing 757).
- Training pilots would be billions.
- Intermingling those fleets or working on a fleet plan would be billions (of dollars).

Ain't gonna happen!!!

 

[JAMAKE1]

Aislehopper:

I believe that what PITBULL is saying is that it is important for those who choose to stay, to fight to MINIMIZE the amount of concessions. She is correct. Everyone ought to be contacting their respective sentators and and members of congress to get pension reform legislation passed.

After two rounds of concessions at my bankrupt airline, I am grateful for having had a collective-bargaining agreement. Having had a contract gave us some leverage with which to negotiate our givebacks. While painful, having had some negotiating leverage, we maintained our important work-rules and duty rigs, holiday pay, and international rates of pay to Hawaii, Alaska, Mexico, and the Caribbean (management wanted to impose domestic pay rates).

I am not necessarily a union cheerleader, but I do suggest that Delta flight attendants look at organizing as soon as possible so that management doesn't arbitrarily impose whatever cuts they deem fit. In a nutshell, the difference between being represented and unrepresented by a CBA in bankruptcy, is the ability to have some NEGOTIATING LEVERAGE with which to bargain with management for conessions rather than allowing management to IMPOSE the terms that they deem necessary.

 

[jimntx]

When things look blackest I'm always there with the voice of doom. While you are writing your senator and congressman, remember that the pro-business, anti-union Republican Party controls both houses of Congress, and will until at least January, 2007. I don't think DL or NW will wait that long in imposing concessions on their workers.

 

[Borescope]

Don't you love this business? 😛 It's probably the only one where the cost of doing business is passed to the employees, rather than the consumer. Next time you ride on an airplane, just look at all the happy people riding on a ticket that you paid part of. :down:

 

[Beer Guzzler]

When things look blackest I'm always there with the voice of doom. While you are writing your senator and congressman, remember that the pro-business, anti-union Republican Party controls both houses of Congress, and will until at least January, 2007. I don't think DL or NW will wait that long in imposing concessions on their workers.

[post="302783"][/post]​

Rumor is by the end of this week.. Layoff's & Pay Cuts will be announced.. Effective 01 Oct ...

 

[Flufdriver]

So you had over 5,000 posts Pitbull...still, look what happened to you and U. Your posts didn't make one difference in the scheme of things!! It's a whole different animal out there. Like U, pay got so low people left. Easy to replace higher paid employees with new-hire poverty payscales anyday. If you had a company bleeding like a firehose you would do the same thing...and don't tell me different. Do I agree with them ....NOT at all. I can't get to impressed with your 5,000 posts...they didn't matter at all, except to rawl the troops at little! U's f/a's still got hammerd, yes even with your posts. Only person impressed with that number is yourself! MHO...

 

[aislehopper]

Aislehopper:

I believe that what PITBULL is saying is that it is important for those who choose to stay, to fight to MINIMIZE the amount of concessions. She is correct.

I am not necessarily a union cheerleader, but I do suggest that Delta flight attendants look at organizing as soon as possible so that management doesn't arbitrarily impose whatever cuts they deem fit. In a nutshell, the difference between being represented and unrepresented by a CBA in bankruptcy, is the ability to have some NEGOTIATING LEVERAGE with which to bargain with management for conessions rather than allowing management to IMPOSE the terms that they deem necessary.

[post="302778"][/post]​

JAMAKE:

I appreciate your feedback. However, I believe that for a company to exist in this industry at this time, it has to have a streamlined business plan and low costs.
A company knows what its CASM needs to be. It then works backward to find out what is necessary to achieve that cost. Once a company has a number it needs from each department, it then inflates the number and makes a really nasty term sheet. The term sheet is presented to the union, which then negotiates it back to the dollar amount that the company needs. The union then proclaims victory.

I think at Delta, we are just told what we will be giving without all of the emotional trauma associated with the whole term sheet negotiation process. All in all, it seems to wash out to be the same. Which method is better? I really do not know. Ask me in three years.

There is an active afa-CWA organizing campaign here at this time. However, it missed at least one prime opportunity to get cards signed - potentially enough to put it over the top. As four failed Frontier campaigns and one really expensive failed Delta campaign will prove, the afa-CWA's organizing department is not up to the task. A I have a book around here somewhere that said that workers tend not to organize in times of economic downturn. If it is true, we will not be union-represented soon

The main reason why I am not very concerned about union representation is there is no "status quo" protection of pay and workrules between a successful organizing election and a first contract. Management can unilaterally change workrules, pay, and benefits if it is for business reasons (i.e. no relatiation.) While it is true that a union could launch a PR campaign and make us feel very unhappy about what is going on, it would not be in a position to negotiate. Therefore, I believe that a union could not be on the property in time to make a difference.

Cheers,
ah

 

[WorldTraveler]

Unions have done very little to stop the flood of cuts that have come to most airline employees. And even if DL employees were able to obtain union representation, it would take years for a new collective bargaining agreement to be implemented - long after DL has done what it has to do to turn itself around. All unions have done is divert sorely needed money from employee paychecks.

Beer Guzzler,
fencing aircraft fleets could very well be done in a merger. Remember that ALPA is the only union at DL and they agreed to fences of the A310 fleet in the Pan Am acquisition - and DL was a lot stronger then that it is now.

If a merger between DL and NW happens, it will be because both airlines do what they have to do independently to get their businesses on track inside bankruptcy.

You also may be interested to know that the total size of DL and NW's international operations is about the same so far this year. However, DL is growing their international operation by shifting 767s from domestic to international flights - which they can do because they have a number of international capable 767s that are currently flying on the domestic system. Additionally, DL has talked about starting to fly 757s over the Atlantic so there are even more aircraft that could move from domestic to international operations.

NW has very few international aircraft that could move from international to domestic operations and in fact they are also removing older international aircraft from service such as the 747-200s that were flying JFKLAX (and had to be funded by cancelling JFKNRT). Although NW also has 757s, they do not have a NE gateway that could serve as a suitable gateway for transatlantic 757 service; DTW is probably suitable as a gateway for 757s to Europe only to cities in the UK and Ireland.

I think you will see DL become much more international in the next year. If being international is a determining factor in how quickly DL and NW return to profitability, DL is likely to win that contest.

 

[coolflyingfool]

I can see the merger happening, but there will have to be some minor concessions made on both parties halves to make it work. If they do get together, we are talking about the number 1 USA airline far and away. With their route structures just on the mainline level, not including the regionals, is extremely impressive. They would have the US very well covered except for North-South flying out on the West Coast. This new Delta Orient could end up destroying a few small fish on the way to becoming the whale. Just my thoughts......

 

[ZMAN777]

I think a lot are overlooking the fact that AMR is lurking out there with a fairly sizable warchest of cash and certainly access to more and is looking for the opportunity to acquire access to the Pacific. I think a much more probable scenario would be a move by AMR to acquire NWA Pacific assets following NWA's reorganization.

However, AMR couldn't afford to wait too long to make its move. Lets say 1-11/2 years most. IF NWA & DAL planned to merge AMR would lose its opportunity to consolidate its position with a Pacific acquisition. If that happened I also think you'd then see a UAL/CAL link-up leaving AMR #3 without any chance to move up.

AMR is savvy and I think they will move aggressively in this direction. That said, a UAL/DAL link-up would be almost a certainty. Lots of things to iron out but looking forward to the globalization of the industry if you're not a player world-wide (amongst the legacy carriers) you won't survive long-term.

Just my thoughts.


Cheers,
Z B)

 

[PITbull]

PITbull:

Given that we are mostly ununionized, at any point during DL's history management could have imposed cuts to bring our wages and benefits much below our unionized peers without bankruptcy.

The company will do whatever it takes to remain viable which I believe will include pay cuts for more than just our pilot group.  If the cuts reduce my standard of living to what I consider unacceptable, I will leave.

This industry has changed.  It will change further.   Regardless of the hard work of some union members, the history over the past three years have shown that unions cannot prevent what is happening from happening.

[post="302710"][/post]​

You're right. As long as these airlines have a "loop hole" and that is using Bk to bust contracts (and maybe at every amendaable date going forward) there will be no balance and a race to the bottom.

They all will take their turns and probably more than once.

Unelss the conservative right wingers do something ingenius like close many of the loop hole BKprovisions and allow the market forces to dictate who survives.

But knowing this Congress, ain't going to happen.

Race to the botoom folks, buckle your seat belt for a rough long ride down that spiral. Your neighbors are either right behind you or already in front of you. B)